This is a good watch - full of the grey that some people only see as black and white.
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There seem to be plenty
Meanwhile, here’s a word causing a kerfuffle.
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Help me out here for a moment as I need to know if I am in fact an anti-semite
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I am harshly critical of the Israeli government for its actions against the Palestinians
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I find all religions a load of bollocks and that includes the Jewish one… as a humanist, and atheist this i do not differentiate between the level of bollacks I apply to any of those these ridiculous institutions - please note, that I will not mock those who have ‘faith’ but would question their reasons why they need it? does that make me a twat?
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I do feel that ‘some’ of the Jewish community /religion do play on the legacy of hideousness of the holocaust to ensure they are above criticism - The obvious example is Palestine, but even little things eg, I feel that circumcision is barbaric, and would criticise any religious group that forces this on new borns… does that make an anti-semite?
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I find the ridiculous way that the west panders to Israel offensive and ridiculous…
I have no idea whether the Labour party houses anti-semites or not, but suspect it houses many who feel the same as me on the above and good on them
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I think if anything is clear about the current discussion about antisemitism, it’s that nothing is clear.
The one obvious area of concern from your points above is point 3 where you hung Palestine on the Jews. As you say in #1 - the Israeli government sets policy on the treatment of the Palestinians not specifically followers the Jewish religion. That Jews are found in the Israeli government risks conflating the two, but there are many Jews that are critical of the Israeli government’s treatment of the Palestinians.
I’m no expert and it is a dangerous and incendiary subject, but the more I read on the subject (albeit many from sources defending the Labour party), the more I realise it is very dangerous to take the definition of antisemitism solely from those that would stop the criticism of the state of Israel and the Zionism movement.
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I wish i could give you 1,000 upvotes AG, a great post.
Surely anyone with a functioning brain can see what is going on here. This whole furore has got nothing to do with Anti-Semitism. Surely it is time for Jeremy Corbyn to stop apologising, nothing short of his standing down as leader of the Labour Party will appease these bastards. The penny has dropped that the likely next Prime minister of this country will commit his government to recognizing the State of Palestine. This is what this whole so called Anti Semitism bollocks is about. The LFI /CFI are desperate to stop this happening. Corbyn would be the first leader of a government in the UK in modern times who is not a member, and will have no truck with the so called ‘Friends of Israel’. They will stop at nothing to stop this coming about. The latest today was a front page ‘exclusive’ in The Times, which used to be a respected journal of record, which, laughably linked Corbyn to the Ku Klux Klan. Apparently three years ago a KKK leader welcomed Jeremy Corbyn’s election as leader of the Labour Party. So let’s have this right. Corbyn has progressed from being an IRA terrorist supporter, to a Czech spy, to an Anti Semite, to a white supremist. Never mind that it is a matter of record that over more than three decades as a Labour MP he has consistently voted in support of anti racism, tabled motions in the HOC in support of Jewish organizations in their fight against anti semitism. But he has also consistently been a vocal supporter of Palestinian human rights. Of course this didn’t matter as long as he was ‘dear old Jeremy’, an anonymous back bench MP. Then, three years ago, he suddenly found himself leader of the Labour Party. If somebody had told him this would happen he would have laughed and called for the men in white coats. But it happened, and to the horror of people like Margaret Hodge,(who signed his nomination papers) he struck a chord with the ordinary man and woman on the street, especially the young. From the get go the Blairite wing of the Labour Party, swiftly followed by the establishment of this country have done their utmost to undermine him, slandering him, no dirty tactic or bare faced lie was considered beneath them in their desperation to get rid of him as Labour leader. But it hasn’t worked. People are not stupid. Let them carry on with their ridiculous smears, bring it on. The more ridiculous it gets, the more people can see it for what it is. He must stand strong, stop apologizing, he has nothing to apologise for.
Newspapers like The Guardian have shown themselves to be nothing more than mouthpieces for the establishment, any reputation they have built up over decades for fair mindedness and independence has been trashed. But surely we are entitled to expect better from The BBC. The BBC are a fucking disgrace.
Newsnight on Tuesday night was a classic example of this. They led with another Corbyn bashing anti semitism story. this time leading on an event eight years ago when Corbyn hosted an event in Westminster for holocaust memorial day. Dame Louis Ellmen MP, a leading light in the LFI, told us all that she was shocked to hear that Jeremy Corbyn had hosted the meeting where a speaker compared Nazi and Israeli policies. At no time did Emily Maitlis mention that this speaker, Hajo Meier was a holocaust survivor from Auschwitz. Hajo Meir, a great man, coined the expression, " An anti semite used to be someone who disliked Jews because they were Jews, now an anti semite is someone who Jews dislike". So now we have the BBC propagating the disgusting agenda that a Jewish survivor of Auschwitz is an anti semite. The other speakers were survivors of Atlantic slavery. native Americans, Roma and others who shared their experiences with the many Jewish survivors of genocide in the audience.
As it happened Jeremy Corbyn had to leave the meeting after introducing it to attend a debate in the House Of Commons. Louise Ellman, (who expressed shock at discovering that Corbyn was at the meeting) by contrast was present throughout. Staggering hypocrisy. Interesting that a small but vociferous group from the Zionist Federation were remembered at the meeting for shouting down any non Jewish speakers recounting their experiences with cries of “boring”. As i said before, the BBC are a fucking disgrace and increasingly obviously are a threat to democracy and free speech in this country. Anyone taking their shilling should stand in front of the mirror and have a word with themselves.
Could you do the honours please modboy if i fuck the link up. Cheers.
https://www.trendsmap.com/twitter/tweet/1024718995734360065
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All comes down to IHRA definitions and they’re real purpose and has been going on since they redefined things.
Interestingly, the Prime Minister announced the adoption of the new definition of anti-Semitism at a meeting with the Conservative Friends of Israel, where she described Israel as a state that “guarantees the rights of people of all religions, races and sexualities”.
Did she say that with a straight face?
Now for those that follow this kind of thing and can remember all previous(bounty on politicians heads. Nothing done?) it does look suspicious.
The problem(which will be religiously highlighted for as long as humanly possible) are those that can’t separate the identity/religion from the (for most)foreign state.
There’s another party rife with that problem on multiple levels. How much are we hearing about that from our guardians of truth(daily, at least twice in every msm publication)?.
I think my point 3 is part of the issue though Bletch… and I use the ‘some’ there as an clear note of. Auction. The fact that the Israeli government is pulling the strings is clear and accepted , but it is they imho that play the western guilt card and have done for the last 70 plus years.
The ‘west’ has persecuted the Jewish community for several thousand years, and the culmination of this under the Nazis finally made decent folks try and do something positive- they fucked it up, but since then the Israeli government has just used that to get away with anything they chose -just look at the number of UN resolutions they ignore.
Now you are right is being clear to disconnect this politically aggressive behaviour from any Jewish religious doctrine, but it does not mean the Israeli government don’t use their ‘god given’ right to this land as their own rhetoric, western guilt as mask to do as they please with it.
The question though was that does holding such a view make me an anti-Semite? I have no prejudices - but equally question all organised religious movements for peddelling their own brands of hypocracy and often hate, I abhor the inhumanity of any murder and genocide as we all do, matters not who by or against who.
So under the current ‘heat’ where any critique of Israel seems to make one a target for such slurs, would that apply to me?
As others have said the definition seems to alter depending on the actions /words of the one being targeted for the accusation and it is that which I find as confusing as it is ridiculous.
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I’ve said it before, Corbyn dithers in these situations. Far more robust handling of this at the start would have minimised the fallout - for example why did it take them so long to deal with the Livingstone situation - anyone could see that was toxic and needed to be got off the table immediately, but he can’t do it.
Can he actually do anything?
Is dithering actually a successful political strategy in these times?
I can’t comment on the anti-Semitism per se, but IF you get called out as an …ist for criticising the Israeli government, then surely you must be an …ist for criticising leaders of Muslim countries like Bashar?
#ratsnest
The issue where you see blurring between the Israeli government and the needs of Jews come together under the drive to establish a jewish homeland - Zionism.
This is where things get woolly for me. On one hand I support the need for people who identify as Jewish to establish a homeland. How it was done and the impact on the surrounding nations, and in particular the Palestinians, gives me heartburn but the need was there and it was met.
What causes me grief now is the way successive Israeli governments (note I didn’t say Jews) are making people homeless and taking land and building settlements in the name of Zionism.
These illegal things are done by politicians in the name of Zionism, which lends a protection from criticism to them.
I reserve the right to criticise the illegal behaviour of a nation’s government no matter what language is used to protect itself from criticism.
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All wankers must be anti- Semite if they can still pull the hood over the eye
Good article @pap.
What would be the impact if they (and others) do ship out to the mythical new centre left party?
Is that a danger - as it might split the left vote?
If there are some positives to come out of this, I think it’s this. The pro-Israel, pro-Zionist political lobby and its many helpers have surely overplayed their hand in the UK on this issue. There has been near wall to wall coverage of this topic for nigh on three years, intensifying as we hit leadership elections, local elections, or Labour happening to leapfrog the Conservatives in the polls.
The Guardian of apartheid has pretty much had a Labour antisemitism story on its front page, every day, for a month now. That’s before you look at the field day that the likes of the Telegraph are having with the story.
Nonetheless, Corbyn’s numbers are either maintained or go up.
Now I’m sure we’ll see some inevitable hit piece making assertions about the British electorate, about it not caring about antisemitism, perhaps being antisemitic en masse. This article would of course, be based on the logic that if Corbyn enjoys such support
, and Corbyn is (in Margaret Hodge’s Parliamentary privileged words), a fucking anti-Semite, then the electorate must support his views.
Here’s the problem. He doesn’t have those views, and moreover, the British public doesn’t believe he has those views either. Doesn’t wash with the public image of the Labour Party, derided by many in the knuckle-dragging demographic as being too friendly to immigrants. It doesn’t wash with Corbyn either.
It also doesn’t wash that the behaviour described as antisemitic actually is. Most of the current cases under investigation would collapse under the traditional definition, which is hating Jewish people for being Jewish. I know it can be argued that what Livingstone said was impolitic, but it was not untrue. An Israeli government fell when revelations of Nazi and Zionist collaboration emerged in the 1950s.
If he’d said what he’d said in the 1950s, he would have been commenting on a contemporary story of the day. In 2018, some history is verboten, apparently, and I have to ask. Is that any better than book burning?
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Thanks, and thanks for helping out with the edit, @saintbletch. I think I’ve mastered the art of walking on eggshells.
I’m not convinced that they will create a new party. They know full well what name recognition means. They’ll be seen as bigger traitors if they go, too. A lot of bad will with local members. I suspect that this new party talk is just a means of putting pressure on the leadership.
If any of these MPs do read that article, they should really look at that Owen Smith rally. That really is their support these days. The bulk of the Labour party membership joined after Corbyn got elected. I think they know deep down, they’d be humiliated.
Even if they did split, the left vote is the last thing they’d get.
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True, but i steer away (perhaps wrongly in some eyes) from the zionist tag for that very reason - it clouds things further … this is simply a government that is expanding its borders and removing folks form there homes to create enlarged settlements for its people… that is wrong and no one should be frightened of being publicly critical of such illegitimate actions… We are hypocrites if we do… I am not a big Corbyn fan, but the way in which he has been hounded and falsely accused since he was elected leader of the labour party is pretty fucking scandalous and those that accuse him of anti-Semitism are stooping very low indeed.
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Precisely. You sound like you’re neutral on Corbyn, but even his political enemies that hate him for all that he is, know he’s not that.
That’s what makes the statements from this grubby conspiracy all the more vile. They know he isn’t antisemitic either, yet they’ll say it anyway.
When on TSW, I think I invented the term “honey bee attack”, attributed initially to @Furball, I think. Honey bees are the type of bee that can sting something, but not without ripping their arses out in the process, not without shortly dying afterward.
His accusers come of this looking far worse than he does.
You’ll love this one @pap
“Actually, you must forgive me – because I’ve done something faintly mischievous there.”
Nothing faintly mischievous, more out and out deliberate set up for what’s coming.
“Before we go on, I should stress that I am not here to liken Jeremy Corbyn to a far-right rabble rouser – even though his bespoke antisemitism definition defends the principle of being able to compare pretty much anyone with Nazis.”
No one’s going to believe you Marina.
A Waco week, as Corbynistas do politics in the paranoid style