The most compelling reason I can see for getting involved in air strikes is the fact our ordanance is far more suited to surgical strikes that anyone elses. The Brimstone missle has a very low schrapnel output and is less likely to create collateral casulties that the missiles that the US and russians use.
Like others, I can see many compelling reasons for not bombing, but I’m also uncomfortable about what seems to be the only other viable alternative, namely, to do nothing. (Are there any other viable alternatives?)
Targeted air-strikes do seem to have at least disrupted the territorial advance of Daesh, limiting the ground under its control to something slightly less than the area of the U.K.
If the best case for war is that we might kill less people in collateral damage than others, then the case is fucked. Do you honestly think that victims on the ground are going to be doing that “Brit bombs are nicer” analysis when they’re missing limbs and/or family members?
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I agree. From a purely selfish (Tory) point of view, I work in a high profile building in the middle of London. I don’t want to do anything that could piss these fuckwits off (I’ve already started walking from Waterloo to my work and back so I don’t get caught underground). At the same time, what Daesh are, what they stand for and the barbaric acts they carry out is utterly abhorrent, and they need to be wiped from the face of the earth. I’m torn to be honest.
“They won’t change the way we live”
Fuck sakes Cherts. Living your life in fear.
We often “do nothing” in my game, Halo. Cherts would probably agree. The mistake is to think that “doing nothing” right now means doing nothing forever. We are often asked to do some quite complex stuff that can’t really be done, and hasn’t really been given due consideration. So we say no.
Time is then spent on refinement or discovering bits of the solution that we need more information on. Eventually, armed with a proper plan, we do something.
The worst spot to be in is when you DON’T know what you’re doing or there are huge holes in your plans. Most businesses have risk processes to ensure that projects begin on a sound footing, have a clear set of objectives, which can be measured afterwards.
Assessed like that, there’s no fucking case at all. If this was me submitting a plan, I’d already have got the bollocking and would be working on a revision. When it’s the PM for a shite plan in Syria, the media distills that into “doing something” or “doing nothing”. Even assessed as that simplistic level, “doing something” hasn’t made the region any more peaceful.
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Meh, only to a degree. I don’t come into work scared of everything and everyone, just decreasing the risk of getting caught up in something, s’all. It’s also good exercise doing 4 miles of brisk walking a day.
I just think, why increase the risk?
Agree with everything you’ve said there. I’m one for proper planning and governance before starting something of that ilk.
Yes, Pap, I agree that doing nothing until a proper plan is formulated is usually preferable to rushing into an ill-thought-out, knee-jerk reaction. But, in the meantime, the area under Daesh expands, with the result that:
more Shi-ites and other non-Daesh Muslims are executed as apostates
more Yazidi children are sold into sex-slavery
more women are raped
more gays are thrown off of roofs
more adulteresses are stoned to death
more petty thieves have their arms amputated
more smokers have their fingers amputated
more terrorists are trained and equipped to slaughter innocent people in Bagdad, Beirut, Paris et al
I’ve no idea what the fucking answer to all this is.
Shadow cabinet is meeting now. The results of the consultation are in. 75% of full members are against the strikes.
Jeremy Corbyn is to go into a crunch meeting with his shadow cabinet armed with an internal party survey showing that three-quarters of members oppose extending RAF airstrikes in Syria.
The party said a random sample of full individual Labour party members showed 75% were against UK bombing in Syria, 13% were in favour and 11% were undecided.
The figures showed the party had received 107,875 responses in a consultation, of which 64,771 were confirmed to be from full individual members. The remainder included affiliated supporters and registered supporters.
Free vote it is.
Jeremy Corbyn is to offer a free vote to MPs on David Cameron’s proposals for UK to bomb Isis in Syria but will make clear that Labour party policy is to oppose airstrikes.
The Labour leader will also press Cameron to delay the vote until Labour’s concerns about the justification for the bombing are addressed, as part of a deal he has thrashed out with the deputy leader, Tom Watson, and other senior members of the shadow cabinet over the weekend.
As I said before, canny move - particularly with the results of that consultation in.
Originally posted by @pap
Shadow cabinet is meeting now. The results of the consultation are in. 75% of full members are against the strikes.
Jeremy Corbyn is to go into a crunch meeting with his shadow cabinet armed with an internal party survey showing that three-quarters of members oppose extending RAF airstrikes in Syria.
The party said a random sample of full individual Labour party members showed 75% were against UK bombing in Syria, 13% were in favour and 11% were undecided.
The figures showed the party had received 107,875 responses in a consultation, of which 64,771 were confirmed to be from full individual members. The remainder included affiliated supporters and registered supporters.
Not often you hear members of the Labour Party voting AGAINST strikes is it?
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Not just Labour MPs. If Cameron thought he could carry the vote with his own majority, he’d have already done so. As it stands, he’s waiting until he feels he’s got enough support to call a vote.
30 Tory MPs rebelled against the government on the Syrian vote in 2013.
David Amess (Southend West)
Richard Bacon (Norfolk South)
Steven Baker (Wycombe)
John Baron (Basildon and Billericay)
Andrew Bingham (High Peak)
Crispin Blunt (Reigate)
Fiona Bruce (Congleton)
Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford)
David Davies (Monmouth)
Philip Davies (Shipley)
David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden)
Nick de Bois (Enfield North)
Richard Drax (Dorset South)
Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey)
Philip Hollobone (Kettering)
Adam Holloway (Gravesham)
Phillip Lee (Bracknell)
Julian Lewis (New Forest East)
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley)
Stephen McPartland (Stevenage)
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley)
Anne-Marie Morris (Newton Abbot)
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole)
Sir Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills)
Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle)
Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight)
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes)
Charles Walker (Broxbourne)
Chris White (Warwick and Leamington)
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes)
It was a joke Pap. A play on words.
I was not unaware, Cherts. I just chose to respond with a serious point, sir.
Fair enough!
Not sure Cameron has the mandate for this, and hoping that the above turn out by Labour voters ‘whips’ the rebels into doing what’s right (at the moment).
Have to say, I’m impressed with the way Corbyn is playing this…
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To be honest he has no other choice, he can’t force his MPs to vote his way because he’s rebelled so many times in the past that it would be hypocritical and he is a principalled man.
I did read, in the Sunday Times I think, that Labour MPs face de-selection though if they vote for!
I do hope he stops this “asking the people” what they want though, he was elected by the people, they have given him their mandate, therefore what he choses shoud suffice. IF he gets the PMship then he isn’t going to be able to ask for advice.
I’m not sure anyone should vote either way until someone comes up with what could be loosely described as a plan.
It’s the clueless supporting warmongering headless chickens at the mo with U-turns aplenty on who the enemy is.
How about we identify some genuine targets before we start pressing buttons - and perhaps consider a plan for later?
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If the U.S., Russia, France and the UK and anyone else who wanted to all supplied 10,000 soldiers and we dropped them into Raqqa we could destroy loads of the ISIS bastards and reclaim the land they have taken. Give the residents a weeks notice that it’s coming and tell them to get out and then fuck the place up. I feel in war mongering mode. Let’s go to war! Better than air strikes. Let’s get our top boys on the job and if we haven’t got enough then let’s send some TA out there.
Who would be up for that?