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Reasonably serious discussion
101

Lebanon was like a med holiday resort in the 60s… Girls went to school in 70s Afgahnistan… But that is another issue. You are right that Cameron can’t say what he wants… And that is a fucking good thing because the last thing we need is more divisive talk. He is just being a twat to appeal to the Right … End of. Grannies speaking English… :lou_facepalm_2: His idiocy and blatent casual racism would even be funny if he was not in power.

as for you other broken record Barry … I Am an atheist and think all religious dogma is total and utter bollox, but even I can see what you are trying to do here. You need to stop assuming that it’s all religious teaching causing the problems. It’s not. Saying all Muslims have same attitude to homosexuals and women is no different to saying all Christians hate gays… It’s a subset That chose to interpret their holy books in a certain way because it’s easy to be ignorant as opposed to be learn…ed and recognise that we have grown as societies because we no longer fear much that was unknown. individuals chose to take on these hateful attitudes and it’s on an individual basis that education must take place… And it’s generational. We were still prosecuting gays in the 1960s without a load of religious dogma bollox to blame… So be careful when judging other societies on this issue. Change requires education and time. First step is the build trust, not division. Build understanding not suspicion, and then as people experience a freer society without prejudice… Things evolve as they did for women and gays in this country… And there is still a lot of prejudice within our own culture without religious dogma so don’t be too quick to ‘cast the first stone’ to Nick a proverb from our Christian nutters

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102

Bloody backwards religion

Archbishops sanction US church who approve of gay relationships

21-year-old woman appeared before a Belfast court charged with two offences that have remained unchanged on its statute book since 1861

103

I do believe I said it was “cultural” above and we shouldn’t shy away from tackling that, whether it be a Presbytarian from Tyrone, Catholic from Armagh or an Arab from Bolton their faith makes no difference before the eyes of the law.

Do you deny people carry out agendas as its Gods will?

We shouid challenge racism, homophobia and sexism and bollocks to sensitivites.

104

True, Gay on Lebanon. Must have been an amazing period to have lived there. Was talking to Pap at the weekend about my Grandma who was from Alexandria, Egypt, and that sounded an amazing place to live in pre-revolution (1952). Post revolution, unfortunately, she wasn’t allowed to return home. which was good for me, as I wouldn’t have been born.

105

Originally posted by @Fatso

Bloody backwards religion

Archbishops sanction US church who approve of gay relationships

21-year-old woman appeared before a Belfast court charged with two offences that have remained unchanged on its statute book since 1861

Completely agree and fair play to question it, the issue is the Anglican faith is probably the only one to amend, listen and move forward on the gay debate, the others are 1000’s of years behind so even if the book is a book of shit the Anglican communian is something in many senses to be proud of,

And abortion or the lack of it is another faith/religious thing that belongs in a itme long ago, a womans choice.

106

For a couple of years until the oil money stopped being pumped into it and Israel bombed the shite out of it.

107

Why wasn’t she allowed to return? Was she a christian?

108

She was Catholic, but I think the issue was more that she got married to a Scot, and had kids. When they divorced, and she wanted to come home, they wouldn’t let her back in. Alexandria vs Kirkcaldy. She had a pretty tough time.

109

I can imgaine, Arab Nationalism was very high in the 60’s.

110

Could this be because Iran isn’t actually an Arab nation? Could the Arabs that live in Iran actually be alright because they are Persian?

111

To be fair to Barry that religion as well as Christianity does pretty much hate on the gays. It is clearly written in both their books, gays are bad so hate on them.

I don’t agree when people say that it’s the teaching of the books that makes the difference and the books are actually alright. Both books are shit, obviously written by man and not God (some Bronze Age Barry no doubt). The closer the people follow either of the religions, the less tolerant they are. When we talk about moderates e.g. Moderate Muslims, what we really mean is they don’t follow it that closely. They turn up at the church/mosque for the cup final but not really the league games.

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112

Multiple upvotes for introducing the phrase ‘Bronze Age Barry’ to the forum. The perfect epithet.

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113

My understanding is the difference between Islam and Christianity in this context, is that our society allows you to be a moderate Christian, but as it stands, you’re not ‘allowed’ to be moderate Muslim. To be moderate is to not be at all. And there the challenge lies for many moderate Muslims. Or even atheist Muslims which is a phrase I heard recently.

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114

You should take a look at (part of) that Owen Jones / Peter Oborne interview. Oborne reckons we’ve a soft apartheid happening with Muslims, claiming that when we say we want “moderate” we actually want “secular”. I think it’s certainly enabled quite a bit of racism. One of the most depressing things I’ve seen is other minorities bundling in, such as with that Sikh turban meme doing the rounds exclaiming “we are not Muslim”.

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115

Originally posted by @pap

Originally posted by @Coxford_lou

My understanding is the difference between Islam and Christianity in this context, is that our society allows you to be a moderate Christian, but as it stands, you’re not ‘allowed’ to be moderate Muslim. To be moderate is to not be at all. And there the challenge lies for many moderate Muslims. Or even atheist Muslims which is a phrase I heard recently.

You should take a look at (part of) that Owen Jones / Peter Oborne interview. Oborne reckons we’ve a soft apartheid happening with Muslims, claiming that when we say we want “moderate” we actually want “secular”. I think it’s certainly enabled quite a bit of racism. One of the most depressing things I’ve seen is other minorities bundling in, such as with that Sikh turban meme doing the rounds exclaiming “we are not Muslim”.

I’ll take a look, Pap. Although my point above wasn’t referencing what we want, but rather, the experience of moderate Muslims, and the comparisons with Christianity. Which while I get the debate (and I’ve probably made it myself in the past) and I see why people will push that debate in response to racist debates or right wing debates, but I think it’s not really an accurate comparison, and therefore unhelpful in the greater scheme of things. Without wanting to over generalise here, which I’m inevitably doing.

116

You are correct sorry its an outright Persian Nation, and yes perhaps they are more tolerant in fact Iran is he most tolerant, maybe their faith is moreso? Can you be Arab and Persian though?

117

Moderate is a another example of allowing continued predjudice, the law of the land supercedes religion in this Country and there is no debate on that, its a rule of law, all should be prosecuted, (Justitia blindfolded and all that) but is it really? I doubt it, many hide behind the guise of religion to be racist, sexist and homophobic, countering and saying racism, sexism and racsim happens without religion is moot and excuses those who do it under the name of a God. All should be prosecuted and all should be embarrassed for what they are, having a backward belief because its cultural or religious is exactly that backward and excusing it by saying “moderate” (what does that actually mean?) is making the lifes of these stonethrowers easier, either they accept gay marriage, the equality of women and the equal rights of all in this Country or they don’t?

118

Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez

I do believe I said it was “cultural” above and we shouldn’t shy away from tackling that, whether it be a Presbytarian from Tyrone, Catholic from Armagh or an Arab from Bolton their faith makes no difference before the eyes of the law.

Do you deny people carry out agendas as its Gods will?

We shouid challenge racism, homophobia and sexism and bollocks to sensitivites.

Yes, sadly there are those who know no better - they have been indoctrinated with a religious zeal from birth and follow dogma without question. And of course we should should challenge racism, homophobia, sexism and any prejudices and bigotry where ever we see it… however, you simply can not say ‘bollocks to sensitivities’. There is a very good eason why you cant…

As I said previously, if you want to have an impact when challenging someones religious beliefs, first you need trust,you also need respect, because without those you cant even get them to sit at the same table. You also need education, to be able to offer a rational disection of their beliefes without simply saying its shit and ignorant (no matter how true that may be) - because their beliefs are built on ingrained historical teachings - considered academic study etc.

It is approaching these debates with a LACK of sensitivity that is the problem, because it has the exact opposite effect of what you are trying to achieve… it creates tension, mistrust, divisions ‘you can not understand, you infidel…’ etc - (which is exactly why integration becomes more difficult) so no progress is made and those whose beliefs preach intolerance and prejudice never learn any better.

Its also why those on the RIGHT, are more than happy to use ‘PC gone mad’ bullshit when criticising the need for sensitivities… when the simple fact is that its being sensitive and aware why folks believe in outdated dogma that are fundementally necessary to begin the process of education.

Knowing WHAT someone believs is not enough, you need to appreciate WHY they believe what they do to develop an approach to HOW to help evolve their attitudes.

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119

Chris Morris couldn’t have made this up:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

Funny if it weren’t true etc…

120

Things evolve Tokes - the ‘books’ as written and accepted today have been rewritten, and rewritten countless times based on not just Bronze age Barry, but Middle ages Barry and even Victorian Barry’s perspectives…mostly to suit the power struggles and relgious politics of the day… and we are left with the leagcy of the last change… bit like a fault line the tension builds until an overhaul is necessary and the teachings change…again. With Chistianitty, the majority no longer believe… so the evolution seems to have ground to a halt… but with Islamic teachings, the ‘Tension in the rock’ has been built up over the last 40 years by the geopolitical manueverings as the middle east became a pawn in the battle between cold war superpowers… and the oil access… IMHO (and having watched Bitter Lake) instead of the evolution creating a more moderate view - eg keep the fundementals of good morality, but lose the hate shit, its gone the other way and fuelled a more extremist interpretation which appeals to the disenfranchised young so can be exploited by those with more sinister agendas that having fuck all to do with their religious dogma. This is what is scary, because one can see a logic in why extremism has arrisen… as much as we all acknowledge its madness.

The only way to combat it is to remove the causes - remove distrust, suspicion, inequality, prejudices, geopolitical games…and hope that in 30-40 years evolution will have had a an impact.

1 Like