I can’t do this electronically so I’ll have to say it, Bletch.
1,900,342 down votes.
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Shirty Saint wrote:
Hmmm, I see you’re still a little giddy from yesterday. The problem with justifying statements that can’t be proved for four and a half years is exactly that, it isn’t happening for a long time.
Surely part of you must be thinking that the Labour Party will do worse in the next election than in this one? It is a very real possibility and a scenario I think you should seriously consider. And if this happens, then what? The experiment has failed, and Socialism gets consigned to the scrapheap forever? I actually feel like everyone’s got caught up in a whirlwind of optimism without really thinking of the magnitude of bringing in someone like this is. It took 17 years for Labour to get back into Downing Street after Foot. It could be longer than that now.
I can see how you’ve reached that conclusion, Shirty. I see it differently.
I asked myself is it better to lose the next election with Cooper / Burnham / Kendall as leader, or better to lose with Corbyn at the helm.
Given voting boundary changes, the fracturing of the working man’s vote towards anti-EU UKIP, the dearth of choice between the facsimile policies of the two major parties, the lack of engagement of the electorate and Tory voters’ general ability to ignore the complete and utter fucking despair that I see all around me, I couldn’t see any other candidate winning.
Therefore, I have a free hand (in my mind) to vote for something closer to my view of the world, and to remind the Blairites what their rebranding has achieved. Because it is the Blairites as they are known today, that will be the future (if there is a future) of the electable left.
I have no illusions over Corbyn’s tenure as leader and what it may do. I can see it being acrimoniously short, and I can see it pulling New Labour apart. What forms in the chaos is what interests me. Given another 8-9 years of Tory rule, I reckon that post-2020 we’ll all be up for a revolution of sorts. I’d like my choices at that point to have all shifted to the left.
There are many factors that could change my analysis, but as they are so chaotic for this small brain to understand, I have to ignore them in my decision:
Global economics - A China slowdown may nuke our ‘recovery’ and allow other parties to portray the Tories as responsible.
Europe referendum - The potential exists for the Tories to pull themselves apart over remaining in the EU
Corbyn inclusionism - Corbyn could surprise me and provide the PLP with the ability to hold their own views outside of his ‘party’ line. This may give him longer as leader.
Corbynista revolution - The movement that got Corbyn elected might inspire the youth to activism and that may…yes I know. I know.
I’m sure there are countless others factors too.
So I haven’t quite builded Jerusalem, but I’m feeling satisfied that my master plan is on track this morning. But I’m stopping short of smug, because there are so may things that have to fall into place for it to mean anything real.
Now fuck off and die you Tory scumbag!
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False binary, Bletch. The Blairites were in a minority in the PLP, just as Corbynites are now. Dividing the party in two: between the angels and the (I’m quoting) “scum”, “virus”, “Tory-lites” - and then, incidentally, claiming that people are being mean to them - is a reason in itself why the Corbynites will tear the party apart. (Quite aside from the fact that Corbyn himself has voted against Labour more times than Cameron, so can hardly call upon party discipline - a key ingredient to effective opposiiton).
There was a rebuilding opportunity, with a leader in a caretaking role (none of them was strong enough by a miles to actually lead the party into a general election), but not now.
What we have now is ten years (at least) of unopposed Tory rule. The opposiiton to the Tories will come from dissident Tories. It’s heartbreaking to know that the very people the party is designed to help have now been left twisting in the wind, waiting to be picked off by the Bullingdon Boys.
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Yep. I see all that, but I see 10 years of Tory rule (my unforeseen unforeseens aside) no matter what leader Labour has.
There was a rebuilding opportunity, with a leader in a caretaking role ( none of them was strong enough by a miles to actually lead the party into a general election ), but not now.
Doesn’t this acknowledge that we have 10 years of Tory rule no matter what happened.
Aren’t we in violent agreement on that?
Or did you see a caretaker coming in, transforming the party so that it could find and elect a new leader (as yet not identified), mend the obvious schism (now obvious given 60% in the first round), and turf the Tories out in circa 2020?
I couldn’t see that happening.
We’re not in agreement. no. The reason is that with two of the other three some rebuilding could have been done. With Corbyn that’s not possible. While he makes soothing noises (sometimes) about unity, there’s a whole phalanx of his immediate supporters, including his own camapign director, hell-bent on revenge.
And revenge on whom exactly? That’s where the false binary comes in. It won’t be against dyed-in-the-wool Blairites, who are a tiny minority in the party, it’ll be against anyone who isn’t a Corbynite. That’s how revenge works - it takes out the good guys, mostly. Prepare for a wave of deselections - including possibly his own deputy leader, who has signalled today his support for Trident and NATO membership.
But on thing that’s particularly frustrating about debating with Corbynites: they won’t address the party discipline issue. Why not? Because it sure has hell means that, without it, the Tories are in for the easiest time as they reak havoc with people’s lives.
And a Corbyn win, followed by the unleashing of the Corbynites on their supposed “enemies” (not the tories of course but fellow party members), means we can all look forward to a Goerge Osborne prime minisership in 2020.
That is a terrifying thought.
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You think he’d go that far? I mean I get that’s what his supporters want him to do…but for him to do that would be suicide. Do you think he’s in control, or the hippy voice of the nastier element of the party?
Again, I can see all that, but if it plays that way then Corbyn won’t be leader for long enough to engage in those battles.
The question is whether you felt a non-Corbyn leader (albeit in a caretaker capacity) could have stopped another 10+ years of Tory rule.
I don’t.
That’s where I felt we were in agreement.
Are you saying that a non-Corbyn leader would have ensured a Labour victory in 2020?
If they got Lionel Blair back labours would walk the next erection. Interesting to note tho that even Lionel Blair in his i.e. hayday, didn’t have such big mandate as beard man. Beard man has got the biggest mandate ever! That last sentence, right, is something I also posted on Facebooks, and I immediately got a load of comments back saying, “FINALLY ur coming out! Who is the lucky man?”
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Lucky people who actually got their ballot … still, uncle got in so perhaps some interesting times ahead. He’s obviously been reading my philosophies as many of his seem to match my own (well done, unk) and it will be fun to see if his policies and the new intellectuals that have been pouring out of universities actually bring back a real politicisation of the population or if Essex Man and the misbegotten sons of WWII heroes see anything that isn’t shallow and narrow as inherently untrustworthy (in their own, illucid way).
Anyway, how do you turn ‘lucid’ into a negative? Illucid? It follows the rule, but I’ve never had to make it before.
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OK so it’s time & I’m pissed.
The last two days have been fantastic for Britain & British Politics.
Corbyn is a complete Imbecile.
With me so far?
The ISSUE is that British Politics has been completely fucked up since Michael Foot then IDS were born. The entire edifice of Spin is rotten to the core. Yes austerity after profligacy is the ONLY solution for anyone stupid enough to spend more than they earn. But the rotten core of Politics meant that everyone agreed with the idea of continuing to make the corrupted bankers richer, “because”
Corbyn has an insane problem now, he didn’t want nor expect this. His “ideas” are the dreams of the '80’s loony left and have been discredited by none other than the Russian Chinese & Vietnamese States. So where can he look for new ideas? North Korea?
The fact is Corbyn stands at the door of greatness and salvation for Democracy. Finally, there MAY be an OPPOSITION. Because tbh we have not had that in the UK or US for Decades. We have just had tinkering of soundbites.
The last real Revilutionary Leader “The West” had was Thatcher. Much of her changes set the world we now live in…
Corbyn’s fantasies are as daft as expecting the British Public to drive in Austin Allegros after he wins the Election.
BUT while the UK (Actually the UN) needs to go to war in Syria, Corbyn would never have played Puppy Dog to GW Bush’s insanity. spo maybe there is a glimmer of hope?
IF Corbyn can temper his ideas with reality then he **COULD ** actually be the saviour of Democracy.
**BUT ** IF he truly believes he can implement the SWP & CND’s failed ideas from the late '70’s that have failed even in the heart of “Socialism” then the UK stands on a precipice.
Consumerist Capitlaiism is a disaster for the Planet, Corbyn needs to find a new dream and Oppose unfettered Capitalism.
Sadly, I do not believe he is up to the task and you’ll all have a few years of listening to Billy Bragg and then either utterly fvck it up by electing him OR worse letting Capitalism have free reign because he will not have come up with any PROPER ideas.
(Note. I am a Capitalist and a Right Leaning in my opinions. I also believe the pendulum has swung too far and for eg those responsible for the crash of 2008 (and the Invasion of Iraq) should have been Jailed long ago)
If only Corbyn had Tony Benn (Christ, even Enoch Powell’s) Intellect he could really change things. I just think it will all end in squabbling back stabbing & tears & you will end up in 2020 bing run by a bloody accountant - George Osbourne with the SNP & Lib Dems trying to oppose him while your kids sell SWP magazines outside Walmart in West Quay
Like intiniki, I’m currently reading Owen Jones’ The Establishment. It’s worth mentioning here because he gives a detailed overview of how the present establishment really began it’s political life with the election of Thatcher to the Conservative leadership. Before then, the notion that the free market was the solution to everything was batshit crazy, even to the Conservatives within her own party.
Go back even further, and one of the reasons that Labour got started in the first place was to challenge the orthodoxy of unbridled capitalism back then, especially with how it related to workers’ rights. Consequently, I find the idea that Corbyn is some kind of political dinosaur to be amusing. If we continue on our path of privatisation, we’ll travel even further back in time.
Parliament, as constituted, is nothing like representative on any level. A third of MPs were privately educated, yet only 7% of society at large has been. One in four MPs are landlords, which may go someway to explaining why rent controls have been ignored. Many MPs see their elected position as a stepping stone to a cushy life in the private industries. We outpace the rest of the developed world when it comes to former Parliamentarians serving on company boards.
For all these reasons and more, the establishment is going to come after Corbyn hard. They have too much to lose. Rent controls, shrinking the private sector through nationalisation, future job prospects (either inside or outside of government) or simply labelling people not parroting the corporate line as wacky, outdated or extremists.
Cameron has already been trying to plant the “national security” into the public consciousness. There have been previous smears, and there will be more. Personally, after the mess Cameron created in Libya, he’s got no room to talk.
The only way Corbyn can win is to develop a policy platform that people will sign up for. Many of his positions, though extreme to the government, are not extreme to the general public. There is broad support for energy and rail nationalisation, which a majority of the public agree with. Although not a Corbyn position, 1 in 4 Tories support a 75% top rate of tax, provided the threshold is £1,000,000 p.a.
I have a feeling Watson will be leader sooner rather than later but that will not happen until Corbyn has shaken the tree and got rid of many nu labour and tory light bastards, good riddance and fuckoff to the libbies and tory party.
By appointing John McDonald as shadow chancellor, the Labour party are now led by two men who have never held a ministerial position, shadow or otherwise. Is that lack of experience going to hurt them?.
He is going to have to learn to be a little more moderatewith his language if he wants to survive front line politics. Quotes such as " I would like to go back to the eighties and assassinate Margaret Thatcher" and “…tax the rich bastards” are really not going to help their cause, however much you may agree with the sentiment.
Signpost vs the usual weathervane, and I think a lot of the public are going to respect him for sticking with his man. As you have pointed out, he’s uttered loads over the years that the Tories can fire back at him.
I suspect he will moderate his language. Responsiblity is a behaviour changer. It’d be a shame to see the spice entirely gone, though, Aren’t we supposed to be bored of bland identikit on-message politicians?
Interesting times lie ahead.
I am quite looking forward to the exchanges - the two sides couldnt be further apart is they tried.
I still think the winners will be the Libs - the more moderate Labours supportors who cannot bring themselves to vote tory will migrate there instead - Great opportunity for the Libs, if only they can get their act together
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Good start, looks like he’s just the same as all the others…
How long before he starts getting a car to avoid being haraassed by Journos?
How long will it be before Chertsey learns to post a fucking link?
That is the real question 
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How the fuck do you post a link?
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
Originally posted by @pap
How long will it be before Chertsey learns to post a fucking link?
That is the real question
How the fuck do you post a link?
Click on the link icon dumbass.
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