Labour leadership race - Corbyn elected leader

Had a couple of beers with intiniki last night, a far more committed lefty than I. We discussed the contest, and specifically the way each candidate has approached the race. Apart from Corbyn, Andy Burnham seems to be the only person that has laid out some policy. The New Statesman has a good summary.

Of particular interest are his EU migrant plans, which is almost word-for-word what I’ve suggested on here (was Burnham reading Sotonians in the build up to our defeat? :laughing:). Negotiate a financial settlement with the EU for the pressure we get from EU migrants. Great policy, properly implemented. Leaving aside racism, the concern of most British citizens is the pressure being placed on our communities and public services. As long as Burnham and I are right in our joint assumption that the vast majority of concerned peeps are in the second camp, it could be a vote winner, and more importantly, an opportunity to set up some lasting infrastructure that’ll serve our coming needs.

I may be incorrect, but it doesn’t look as if Cooper and Kendall have actually bothered to set out their visions in any detail, the majority of their campaigns being counter-productively telling people NOT to vote for Corbyn. I’ve found Kendall to be a particularly odious character throughout. Whatever they might say about Corbyn, they’ve not done enough to distinguish themselves as valid challengers, and have been reacting to someone else’s campaign throughout.

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Andy Burnham’s manifesto

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The commission, for me, is the big idea in Burnham’s manifesto. It’s critical not just to the Labour Party but to building a centre-left alliance - provided he doesn’t limit the commission to party apparatchiks (which I doubt).

Originally posted by @Furball

Andy Burnham’s manifesto

Thanks for posting that. I don’t think it’s as radical as he makes out, and I’ve a small suspicion that parts of it are just box-ticking for various sections of the party.

He’s getting my second choice preference vote, assuming that I haven’t been barred for being a hard lefty.

It looks like an interesting manifesto to me, certainly lots in there to be pleased with for the labour folk. Like Pap, he’d be my second choice, if I weren’t a UKIPper.

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I like the idea, papster, but isn’t rooted in the assumption that a significant enough porportion of the electorate wants to stay in the EU - such that a settlement could be negotiated?

If Labour lost votes to UKIP, then those voters may not warm to a solution that has as a central tenet, remaining in the EU.

Unless you’re suggesting a potential negotiated settlement from outside the EU?

I can’t get past the fact that Burham was prepared to vote with the party line on the welfare bill - for the sake of party unity.

You either believe in something or you don’t, surely.

What sort of puppet has the Tories made of the Labour movement that it fears being portrayed by the right-wing press as having voted against welfare reforms more than they care about either their principles or the people it will affect?

Shameful.

I think Burnham is right in his manifesto that we do need a radical shift, but I don’t agree with him when he calls his own manifesto radical.

Calling that a radical departure tells me everything I need to know about how far to the right Labour has moved. It would be Churlish not to acknowledge that I like a lot of his policies, but I simply don’t see that manifesto changing the voting demographic - and I believe it is the demographic of those that bother to vote that has to change if we’re to see another Labour government/coalition anytime soon.

I believe that we need the youth to drag our politicians to the left by committing to vote for them if they adopt left-ish policies.

I don’t believe that Corbyn will facilitate that as leader, but I believe that Corbyn winning the leadership contest just might.

I’m prepared to wait for these things to come to pass because they won’t happen quickly, and I recognise that will mean taking a lot of shit from a Tory/successive Tory government(s).

But through that shit, a growing youth movement against that shit, and a recognition in Labour that people want something very different from that shit will hopefully get us to a better place politically.

If I really felt in my heart that Andy Burham stood a chance of defeating the Tories in 2020, my position would be different, but I don’t. That has less to do with his suitability and more to do with our electoral process and the profile of those that bother to vote.

I’ll be voting Corbyn and an outsider as second-preference - and I went into this contest as a Burham fan.

*BTW Furball, I hope you’re impressed that I wasn’t swayed by the Billy Bragg name-drop.

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Originally posted by @pap

He’s getting my second choice preference vote, assuming that I haven’t been barred for being a hard lefty.

Pardon my pointing this out, but the ‘hard Left’ (such an oxymoron) are a miniscule irrelevance. The Life-of-Brianists in TUSC, LU, etc., amount to around 12,000 at most. The voting numbers for the leadership contest dwarf that.

I do worry for the Labour Party. Perhaps the only way is to create a new centre-left party. It’s seems impossible otherwise.

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Exactly, Lou. We’re in a post-two-party state - the last election was the decisive break from the past, although the Scots referendum was a clear enough heads-up.

This is one of the reasons I dread a Corbyn win: a sectarian in sheep’s clothing. Behind the “I can say anything because I answer to no one” schtick is a party stalwart of Old Labour.

Heaven only knows why anyone sees anything ‘new’ in what he’s saying. It’s instructive to compare the Wilson manifestos with his - there’s little as ambitious and (of its time) fresh as the '64/'66 campaign manifestos (which I think people should be looking at rather than '83).

Absolutely. And the thing that always staggers me, is there is a large chunk of the Labour movement that would be happier to stand by their principles and not be elected, than to be a pragmatist. The absolute loathing for Blair (on a par with Thatcher) is evidence to me of that.

Scotland has made it even more of a ridiculous situation.

Lets see what Brown’s got to say…

Not wanting to words in your mouth, Lou. But given that observation, is it OK to abandon your principles to get elected?

This also seems to presuppose that any of the other leadership contenders that have a real chance of getting elected in 2020.

I really don’t believe that is the case. If I did, I might feel differently.

I’ve watched Labour not win the last two elections whilst consciously turning a blind-eye to some of my principles in order to try to double guess this blasted voting system of ours.

That felt/feels really uncomfortable to me.

I’m planning on sticking to my principles for a while now.

That said, I agree with the attraction of a coalition of centre-left parties, but right now I don’t see where they are going to get the votes from.

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Originally posted by @saintbletch

Not wanting to words in your mouth, Lou. But given that observation, is it OK to abandon your principles to get elected?

This also seems to presuppose that any of the other leadership contenders that have a real chance of getting elected in 2020.

I really don’t believe that is the case. If I did, I might feel differently.

I’ve watched Labour not win the last two elections whilst consciously turning a blind-eye to some of my principles in order to try to double guess this blasted voting system of ours.

That felt/feels really uncomfortable to me.

I’m planning on sticking to my principles for a while now.

That said, I agree with the attraction of a coalition of centre-left parties, but right now I don’t see where they are going to get the votes from.

I don’t think it’s a case of abandoning principles to get elected. Problem solving is never a case of sticking with the absolute, come hell or high water. What principles have you turned a blind eye to?

I also don’t have an enormous amount of faith in the other candidates being electable, but the party lurching left, after already failing with (so called) left of Milliband, is reaffirming negative public expectations of the party, that will dig an even bigger hole. Rather than rebuilding a future which is what they should be doing.

As usual, great speech from Brown. Summed it up nicely. The achievements of the Blair/Brown government are enormously undervalued by their own party. Can you imagine the Tories ever doing that?

The matter may well be academic by the time a Labour Prime Minister takes office. We’ve got a referendum between then and now. They don’t tend to be run too fairly, and you can bet that all the usual shenanigans will apply, and that no voters will be made to feel like giant fucking racists or whatever.

The case should be easy to sell with the right level of political backing and carrots put front and centre. If the EU shows willing to negotiate on matters of demand, then that could immediately make it seem a little less indifferent to the requirements of nation states. The problem with negotiations so far is that Cameron has consistently tried to work against immutable EU principles, such as the single market and free movement of goods and people. Burnham is at least trying to work with it, and if we can get similar levels of investment that Liverpool received for Objective One and Capital of Culture, then infrastructure truly can be improved.

In fact, Burnham should use Liverpool as the poster child for what the EU can achieve. Not joking; I couldn’t even find a job in my field 20 years ago, let alone in the specific languages I’ve been writing in. The EU dumped a ton of money into the economy to get Merseysude businesses onto the Internet. Total win-win. Created the digital sector in the city and improved the prospects of businesses outside the sector. Some before and after shots of the city centre would be very striking too.

Just a little conspiracy theory (I know, I know). Only Burnham of the not-Corbyns has released his manifesto, and yet voting is all but underway and a lot of it will happen within days. Have Cooper and Kendall held back to make Burnham the de facto front runner vs Jezza?

Originally posted by @saintbletch

Not wanting to words in your mouth, Lou. But given that observation, is it OK to abandon your principles to get elected?

This also seems to presuppose that any of the other leadership contenders that have a real chance of getting elected in 2020.

I really don’t believe that is the case. If I did, I might feel differently.

I’ve watched Labour not win the last two elections whilst consciously turning a blind-eye to some of my principles in order to try to double guess this blasted voting system of ours.

That felt/feels really uncomfortable to me.

I’m planning on sticking to my principles for a while now.

That said, I agree with the attraction of a coalition of centre-left parties, but right now I don’t see where they are going to get the votes from.

There’s this strnage argument running around the leadership election that to be a Tribunite is ‘principled’ and anything to the right, or which calls for a centre-left alliance, is ‘pragmatic’. A perfectly principled posiiton can be made from the centre-left of the party and (although I don’t agree with them) among the centre-right of the party too. I honestly don’t believe Alan Johnson on the centre-right is any less ‘principled’ than Mr Purity himself.

The real difference is that the Purity wing stand only the tinest chance of winning a general election - and were they to want to do so, they would be the ones ‘compromising’ their principles more than anyone else.

Principles and power are not diametric opposites. It’s not too much of a stretch, is it, to want to coalesce around ideas that a clear electoral majority would support?

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yes agree with frbl they should bring t.blair back + then they would get election win v.easily

It’s not really necessary with the format, is it? That is why Kendall hasn’t yet dropped out, despite appearing to be little more than a source of anti-Corbyn rhetoric and “angry Liz Kendall” photos. I’ve been told she must be cool because she’s been out with Greg Davies (the teacher from the Inbetweeners).

Cooper just doesn’t seem to have gotten out of the blocks, and as I’ve said before, will be an electoral liability on account of her husband, and how easy he is to attack.

Deliberately holding back? Nah, I’d say it’s a case of not being able to push their own campaigns forward.

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i didn’t know one of them was banging mr gilbert, i would prob vote for that one now i know bout that tks pap