With regards to the migration issue I think you can break this down into subsets:
There are those who are out and out racists and are scum of the earth IMO
There are those who talk about the erosion of the British way of life. I find this impossible to relate to as I think being British is to be part of an inclusive society, and the kaleidascope of creed and colour in our country is something to be proud of. May be this is a generational thing.
There are those who are affected from a work stand point, ie a ready supply of cheap labour keeping wages low (Iappreciate that not everyone on here agrees with this)
There are those, like myself, who are concerned with the impact of unrestriceted migration on public services and our ability to provide adequate service to the people who live here. There is a finite amount of resources. This is not to advocate no migration, but to take stock and allow public services, wages and housing catch up with demand.
I think that the average man in the street falls into the second two categories. I think these are genuine concerns and it is wrong to label them racists just because they have different perspective
Fair enough CB and that was a sweeping generalisation I concur. I sincerely wish both camps had focussed on a positive campain to inform the electorate. It has been an overwhelmingly negative environment in which to formulate your ideas and values.
I am a terminal fence sitter by instinct but this has managed to polarise even me
Problem is that there is a misconception that cheap labour somehow depresses wages and prospects long term…There is plenty of publsihed evidence to suggest the opposite ocurrs because the local workforce needs by default to 'up its game,becomemore productive which in turn leads to igher quality and a more compertitive product… which leads to growth and better wages and opportunities - provided the loacls respeond the challenge that is.
Its this sort of misconception about migration that irritate me, because these sorts of benefits are lost in any argument with ‘the working man in the street’ who equates it having to do more for less…
If you work hard are good at your job, you have nothing to fear from teh influxof cheaper labour. Any threat is form those COMPANIES not the EU, who decide to ignore minimum wage legislation. Its companies who make decisions for quick wins , rather than EU. These companies who this short termist approach will not survive long anyway.
The builders, plumbers etc… they are just fucked off because th migrants show them up for what they are. The grafting hardworking ones are not threatened.
That’s simply not true Gay, an example I’ll give you is a plumber from Latvia living in a house share sends his money back to Lativa and also lives in a house share has far lower costs than a family man.
This is also a true story and the Latvian guy has no affiliation to this Country other than money which again is fine but it hurts the workers here, he is in no union, he is not protected, a race to the bottom in other words.
Man works to send support his family shocker - why does it matter where his family live? Whether in Maidstone or Riga? If he is paying his tax here that is all that counts - if he chooses to live in a shared house to save money how is that dufferent to those sharing flats in London when younger?
Your argument is total bollocks Barry. If you are going to counter that he does not pay tax then two things- how many British builders turn down cash payments and no VAT? And secondly, who is guilty here the builder or the customer willing to pay him cash knowing the tax or vat won’t be paid?
As to threatening jobs- when it comes to the trades people want quality at a fair price - they reliable people who turn up when they promise to and complete a job on schedule- if you can’t do that I would suggest it’s the reason why work is drying up - but of course much easier to blame the foreigners - builders and trades have had a bad rep here long before the Poles and Romanians turned up…
I woudl add CB…that when migrants contribute to society through taxation,the only drain on resources and services is if the Government of the day fucks up and under invests this new extra money in said services… Our current infrastructure, schools, hospitals etc are not stretched because of migrants, they are stretched because of close to 40 years of under investment - we had 35 kids in classrooms rooms in the 80s and no migrant kids were resposnible for that… we are the ONLY country in Europe who has many schools and hospitals in crumbling vitorian buildings… that is not the migrants fault… its the the great british con, that somehow ‘tax and Spend’ became a directy phrase, when that is exactly what taxation is for- the people decide how - Thatcher’s legacy that she convince people to pay less tax as it meant ‘more in their pocket’ conveniently forgetting to mention this comes at a price to …public services…agian cant see how thisis migrants fault…
If this myth of cheap labour influx is true, why not use it to build new schools and hospitals cheaper?
I’ve always said the Sun patriot builder is far from that as they in my experience they don’t pay half of what they earn, my mate declared £23,000 last year for a builder in London?
So farmers shouldn’t get subsidy? Transport?
It a rough day when now Polish truck drivers based in the UK are moaning about being undercut by the Romanians, its a race to the bottom.
This may be the case for some of us but not everyone - there is a section of the workforce, who, for whatever reason, will operate at the minimum wage end of the spectrum. The minimum wage is supposed to be a safety net ie the absolute minimum you can pay. Where demand and supply for labout is balance then as employers need to attract staff they will start to offer more money to secure the candidates and then you start to get upward movement in wages. If the supply of people willing to work for minimum wage is so great, then employers have no incentive to offer more and therefore there is no wage growth.
Seriously CB, whilst I agree with the what you say to some extent, the economic principles suggest that wage levels are rearly cut and dried as supply an demand. I think its more to do with companies that pay UNDER the minimum wage to immigrants that cause the main problems.Thos ecompanies that benefir for cheaper labour and improve productivity and margin, are set for growth - which is one of teh key drivers of improved wages. Its about how good companies are at getting tehoir growth stratgies right IMHO…and there are alot of examples of this.
Yeah, I really struggle to understand how you can see big companies paying staff peanuts and then blame the folk who move hundreds/thousands of miles and blame them for it.
Because it means we advocate people like Lord Hill, we can’t moan about the House of Lords.
We accept we are not in full control of our destiny ie we aren’t a full sovereign nation.
