Why would you take an organisation that believes democracy is a nuisance seriously?
in your opinion… In purely practical terms, this is true anyway… our 4/5 year democratic cycles mean parties are obsessed with a focus on being electable, and not on what is necessary no matter how challenging for the electorate…and why longer and necessary infrastructure projects become mere distractions, become inefficient and in effect compromised or diluted by subsequent governments…
1 Like
This was quite amusing on my FB Aquaintance feed…and yes I am sure comeone can come up with a similar ‘pack of lies’ for Remain… but still…
I said I’d stay out of it. I said I’d keep my opinions to myself, but I was tipped over the edge by arriving home today to find a pamphlet in my other half’s name, and on the same doormat, a lies-ridden rag in my own name.
I started scribbling a response on it, which the intention of mailing it back to them, but after a few minutes listening to the sound of my own indignant breath snorting through my nostrils, I realised the only way I could expunge this fury was by battering my keyboard into submission.
Respectfully, Vote Leave, I would like to unsubscribe from future communications, and here’s why:
It is a pack of lies. Seriously, this is GCSE-level stuff. We as a country are about to take the biggest decision of several generations, one that could not feasibly be undone in my lifetime, and we’re being asked to do so on the basis of lies, half-truths, distortions and, in case that wasn’t enough to hoodwink you, a bit of old-fashioned racism to boot.
Lie #1: Over a quarter of a million people migrate to the UK every year
And over 300,000 people leave the UK every year
( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/Emigration-nation-who-are-the-…
_ _
)
(but because they’re British, they’re called “Expatriots”). You can argue the toss about whether free movement of people within the EU is a good or a bad thing, but you cannot argue that it doesn’t work both ways. You can also argue the toss about whether immigration is a net good, but when a leading Leave campaigner comes out to say that immigration was only a positive until 2002 (when those nasty east Europeans were allowed in), I start to smell racism, and hear a dog-whistle.
http://www.theguardian.com/…/immigration-could-overwhelm-br…
_ _
Lie #2: The EU is expanding to include Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey.
Not strictly true this one. All of the above have expressed their interest in becoming members - in Turkey’s case, as far back as the 1980s - but none are close to having full membership just yet. Yes, Turkey does have a very large population, that’s right, and yes, new members would have the same rights… including a veto on new members. Does the UK have a veto on new members?
Yes, it does. Unless it leaves, when it doesn’t. See also Lie #6.
Lie #3: The EU has changed enormously since 1973
Thank you Sherlock; so have most places. I almost gave you a pass on this one, until I noticed the rather disingenuous claim about needing to prop up the Euro… erm, we’re exempt from Eurozone bailouts. Next.
Lie #4: EU law over-rides UK law
You almost had me on this one, but you need to look at the small print… immigration, counter-terrorism, prisoner voting… thaey are not ECJ decisions, but ECHR decisions. And that is a totally different story. Excuse me while I go off on a tangent…
What they actually want to exempt us from is the European Convention of Human Rights, membership of which is a precondition of EU membership. They would instead replace the Convention with a British version - telling called “rights and responsibilities” - which would defeat the entire principle of universal human rights that we the UK helped to forge. Namely, that regardless what the government of a particular country thinks at any given time you are entitled to be treated with dignity.
Why did we create this principle? Because about 65 years ago, one of our neighbour states changed its laws to allow itself to gas 6 million people within its territory. In doing so, they did nothing illegal but breached every standard of human decency. So after that, we decided it would be a good idea to write down that “standard of human decency” just in case anyone was in any doubt.
So if you belive Lie #4 on the basis of the examples they offer there, then you are falling for one of the bigger porkies of human history.
Lie #5: The EU costs us £350m a week
This isn’t so much a lie as a cluster-lie. It’s several lies packed into one big one. Let me break it down a little:
Lie #5.1 £350m a week.
Which doesn’t count a) the rebate, b) the funds we receive in EU grants for projects we’d otherwise have to fund out of government spending.
Lie #5.2 Enough to build a new hospital…
Spare me. Frankly, if you fall for this one you deserve all you get. Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling and Nigel Farage the defenders of the NHS and British public services? Despite their track records in government and / or stated public positions to the contrary?
Lie #5.3 We have no control over how it’s spent
Rubbish, because…
Lie #5.4 That’s decided by politicians and officials in Brussels…
Who we elect! Commisioners are appointed by member states governments, and the European Commission’s proposed laws are subject to ratification by the European Parliament, which is so democratic it actually gives anti-EU parties such as UKIP disproportionately more seats than their share of vote entitles them to. For example, in 2014 UKIP got 25% of the vote in the UK, and received 35% of the UK’s seats. In the British elections to the Holy Seat of Democracy the following year, they received 1m more votes and took home a paltry one seat.
Lie #5.5 … not by the people we elect
This is not technically a lie. They should be decided by the people we elect, but the fuckers never turn up.
( http://www.independent.co.uk/…/ukip-meps-attend-the-fewest-…
_ _
)
Lie #5.6 [On the reverse they equate this figure to £19bn a year]
£19bn a year is about 2.4% of the UK government’s annual £770bn spending. So turn that into household budgeting… imagine you earn a typical salary of £35k, meaning you take home about £2,100 a month. The equivalent would be a subscription that cost you £51.66 a month. So, on a par with your gym membership or Sky Sports subscription.
Lie #5.7 We get less than half of that back
49.2 % actually. That’s worse than Spain, which just about breaks even, and certainly much worse than Poland which contributes -22%. But compared to Germany, which only gets back 39%, we’re doing pretty well. More here:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union
_ _
Lie #6 You don’t have to be a member of the EU to trade with it
First bit’s true. Switzerland’s a really bad example though. Why choose Switzerland when it undermines your argument so badly? Switzerland and Norway are part of the wider European Free Trade area, which allows them free access to the common market in return for accepting a few conditions like freedom of movement for EU citizens… which kind of undermines your racist fearmongering from Lie #1.
And as for all UK firms having to obey EU rules, are these the rules you want to emancipate us from?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSgaiTdWoAAhYvD.jpg
_ _
Lie #7 While we’re in the EU we can’t negotiate our own trade deals
Two points in response to this: 1) the USA has already said that negotiating a trade deal with the UK wouldn’t be a priority, and 2) most small businesses don’t do import / export. There you’re just re-hashing lie #6.
Lie #8 There are risks in voting either way
Experts, politicians and business are divided. I’ll give you politicians, and maybe give you busin… nah, who am kidding? This is Captain Redbeard Rum’s “opinion is divided on the subject" which he clarified as "all the other Captains say it is, I say it isn’t.”
Lie #9 [Special Bonus Racist Dog Whistle]
What the hell are Syria and Iraq doing on this diagram? Are they applying for EU membership too?
So no, all in all, my mind’s made up, and I think you can save yourself some postage by taking me off the list.
6 Likes
That is v.true gay, I agree with that srs. Democratic is dumb. If there’s important long-term decisions to be made, I want them made by someone who is still gonna be around in 20 yrs to face the consequences. Albeit, I spose there won’t be any consequences if there’s no elections. It’s a difficult issue. Not sure what to do bout it really. Electing Prime Minister is like appointing Manager, prob what we need is a Les Reed type figure to keep him in check, and making long term strategy. Like a director of football, but for whole world. I spose that is what EU should be maybe, they’re like Les Reed?
I’ve talked myself round, I vote REMAIN now. If I was voting. Which I’m not.
1 Like
I said I was going to shut myself in a room for a week and vote out. I have read more about it and the events since Thursday I have come back the other way. I know I know about as decisive as the Saints board appointing a new manager!
I just cannot vote out, as again, more people I have spoken to are boarding on the racist side. I will say of course not everyone that votes out are racist, but the ones that are will not be voting remain. I think we are better of trying to reform from within the EU. I have stood by the fact that you should never look back and try and make right, the choices that you have made in the past. I think we can stay in and still get to make more of our own choices.
I think the out would be just fuelling the fires of far to many extreme right voters and taking the country in the wrong direction. I have tried from the start of this campaign to take in as much information as possible and decide that way, but I tell you what it has been tough. I think the remain is going to get my tick.
It has been fun to try and read as much as possible, but very hard to find a balanced view, but after some meetings in the town this week, it has made things much clearer. Up here in Carlisle, I think the majority will vote out, but for all the wrong reasons.
Can we lock this now, so I cannot change my mind again? Anyone else still undecided?
2 Likes
Yep, definitely give Remain your tick.
2 Likes
Voting out as the worker will be exploited more and more.
Not all outers are racist but all racists are outers. #justsaying.
4 Likes
Jordan Horrenderson’s voting slip:
7 Likes
I don’t even know what that means, so cannot agree or disagree.
4 Likes
Yes.
We should definitely let racist nutters that murder our MPs decide our votes for us through fear.
Who gives a fuck about the day to day? It’s exceptional events, even though they don’t happen very often, which must drive our day to day behaviour.
Good old Private Eye.
I will only say this, we have tried to reform from within for decades. Hasn’t that gone well.
5 Likes
Originally posted by @pap
Originally posted by @Sfcsim
I said I was going to shut myself in a room for a week and vote out. I have read more about it and the events since Thursday I have come back the other way. I know I know about as decisive as the Saints board appointing a new manager!
I just cannot vote out, as again, more people I have spoken to are boarding on the racist side. I will say of course not everyone that votes out are racist, but the ones that are will not be voting remain. I think we are better of trying to reform from within the EU. I have stood by the fact that you should never look back and try and make right, the choices that you have made in the past. I think we can stay in and still get to make more of our own choices.
I think the out would be just fuelling the fires of far to many extreme right voters and taking the country in the wrong direction. I have tried from the start of this campaign to take in as much information as possible and decide that way, but I tell you what it has been tough. I think the remain is going to get my tick.
It has been fun to try and read as much as possible, but very hard to find a balanced view, but after some meetings in the town this week, it has made things much clearer. Up here in Carlisle, I think the majority will vote out, but for all the wrong reasons.
Can we lock this now, so I cannot change my mind again? Anyone else still undecided?
Yes.
We should definitely let racist nutters that murder our MPs decide our votes for us through fear.
Who gives a fuck about the day to day? It’s exceptional events, even though they don’t happen very often, which must drive our day to day behaviour.
Yeah, why would anyone consider what they feel may be the consequences of their vote when deciding how to vote?
Good point and this is why I am a labour voter as well, as I feel a strong leader with a very strong socialist background is more likely to get the best deals for Britian in Brussels.
Not really from a position of strength and influence though CB - as we have never been truly engaged or leading.
And Pap, re events leading how we votes has it not always been thus? That shocking events make us recalibrate how we feel on things - shocking events and years of pressure eventually turned things round in SA and also the civil rights in the US. Reform take years of graft and persistence and chipping away at all that is corrupt and wrong. It is not delivered by ineffective and loose participation at worse complete disrespect for the process (see Farages record)
I admire your conviction for true democracy and your principled stand to defend it- however, don’t you also think it’s somewhat naive to expect politicians to adhere in a similar fashion? Your idealism is respected but it won’t deliver the what you expect - it may look better from the elevated Ivory tower, but on the ground the reality is likely to be too grim for my taste - it comes back to the the issues of WHY some parties and folk support Leave - and what they represent. I don’t want those fuckers with any more influence than they already have- no matter what compromise this may represent.
My point was that we should not modify our entire lives on the basis of one exceptional event. Every time we have, it has led to disaster and restrictions on civil liberties. We saw it after 2001 and all of the atrocities thereafter.
Keeping things abstract, one does not assume an axe murderer epidemic on the discovery of an axe murderer. We do not walk around in axe proof jackets thereafter, because it is an exceptional event, and one that is unlikely to reoccur.
Those changing their vote because of some perceived shift to the right, based on the actions of some nutters on the far right, are wrong. The nation is horrified at Jo’s Cox murder in Birstall. I wouldn’t expect a reoccurrence in the run up to the referendum itself, nor in the aftermath, when hopefully, cooler heads will prevail.
Our police will detect and catch criminals. Our court system will determine the guilt of those charged. Our prison system will incarcerate those found guilty, and unsafe to be let loose in the population. We have those systems for a reason. Some will argue justice, some will argue punishment - but the real reason that we have this setup is because we don’t want to resolve (and should not have to, or be trusted to) many of these problems on our own.
It is impossible to say which outcome will make politically motivated sociopaths crazier, or more miltant. Do you honestly think that in the event of a Remain, far right nutters are going to hang up their DMs and say “we woz wrong” before fucking off to a weaving commune?
3 Likes
let me know when they get one!
1 Like