leave it babe, he’s not worth it.
Originally posted by @KRG
Eurgh, Bob asked my opinion. I gave it. I really don’t get what you are trying to achieve pap.
Provide counter-points to the ones you’ve raised.
It’s pretty apparent we aren’t going to agree or change each others minds.
Obviously, but we’re not the only people reading this.
Is it really that hard to accept that someone can come to a different conclusion to you?
Not at all. That sort of thinking is what I disliked most about the other place.
Is it really that hard to accept that someone will contest your points if that person believes they are contestable?
Originally posted by @KRG
I’ve said before, I find the idea of points based systems abhorrent. Tying somebodies potential quality of life to which bit of rock they happened to be born on is disgusting. We are no more entitled to a certain quality of life than someone through this sheer luck of birth.
I firmly believe in knocking down as many barriers as possible, not putting more up. I fail to see how Brexit is anything but insulist.
That’s all well and good if you have infinite resources, something we don’t have!
More and more people coming to this island is unsustainable and will lead to a degradation of lifestyle. Yeah I’m lucky I was born here, I have a nice life and I live in a nice area because of that accident of birth so why should it be eroded because 300k people every year decide that they want it too?
We haven’t go the infrastructure nor finances to sustain that and, the more populous we get, the more money we have to pay to the EU so we’ll have even less money.
Tell me why the people aren’t stopping at Germany or France in their quest for wanting to live anywhere. I can’t believe it’s because of our quality of life!
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Not a very democratic statement
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Making a fucking by assumption about committment - would suggest fucking patronizing…
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Doubt - I posed a POV, because of the complexity of the issue and why we elect folk who in theory should have the time and dedication to stand up and be counted on the issue so we can see how they stand and why… in addition, just look at the shit that has been poored out by both sides - misinformation paranoid shite and scaremongering - propoganda… to see how this is NOT going to help people make informed decisions on the issues
Pap your POV seems to be dominated by your perspective that its an undemocratic institution…that is your perspective based on your principles… others look at the practical issues, pros and cons and draw their own conclusions - all depnds on what is important to you or what resonates most. The problem with such complexity is that I could find 100 reasons to satay and 100 to leave basedon my principles - so I have to be selective. Therefore, it comes down to much simpler decision making…
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Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
- Not a very democratic statement
Nope, but it’s a pragmatic one.
Would you fancy someone just “having a go” at surgery?
- Making a fucking by assumption about committment - would suggest fucking patronizing…
And not last week, you were suggesting removing the franchise from people because they could not be trusted.
We’re in fucking patronising territory, unfortunately.
- Doubt - I posed a POV, because of the complexity of the issue and why we elect folk who in theory should have the time and dedication to stand up and be counted on the issue so we can see how they stand and why… in addition, just look at the shit that has been poored out by both sides - misinformation paranoid shite and scaremongering - propoganda… to see how this is NOT going to help people make informed decisions on the issues
Folk that have been at odds with the general public on the issue for as long as 40 years. People have wanted a say, and have been unable to have one.
We still don’t really have a say now. This is a consultative, rather than legally binding referendum. I wonder why?
Pap your POV seems to be dominated by your perspective that its an undemocratic institution…that is your perspective based on your principles… others look at the practical issues, pros and cons and draw their own conclusions - all depnds on what is important to you or what resonates most. The problem with such complexity is that I could find 100 reasons to satay and 100 to leave basedon my principles - so I have to be selective. Therefore, it comes down to much simpler decision making…
Yeah, that sort of thinking would have had you joining far right parties in the 1930s.
Originally posted by @BTripz
Tell me why the people aren’t stopping at Germany or France in their quest for wanting to live anywhere. I can’t believe it’s because of our quality of life!
As I understood it, Germany is the number 1 destination.
Originally posted by @pap
Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
- Not a very democratic statement
Nope, but it’s a pragmatic one.
Would you fancy someone just “having a go” at surgery? JEEZ - that is a bit ppor for you
- Making a fucking by assumption about committment - would suggest fucking patronizing…
And not last week, you were suggesting removing the franchise from people because they could not be trusted.
We’re in fucking patronising territory, unfortunately. - ER NOPE seems you mise the whole ‘tongue in fucking cheek’ concept - all gone right over your head…
- Doubt - I posed a POV, because of the complexity of the issue and why we elect folk who in theory should have the time and dedication to stand up and be counted on the issue so we can see how they stand and why… in addition, just look at the shit that has been poored out by both sides - misinformation paranoid shite and scaremongering - propoganda… to see how this is NOT going to help people make informed decisions on the issues
Folk that have been at odds with the general public on the issue for as long as 40 years. People have wanted a say, and have been unable to have one.
We still don’t really have a say now. This is a consultative, rather than legally binding referendum. I wonder why?
Pap your POV seems to be dominated by your perspective that its an undemocratic institution…that is your perspective based on your principles… others look at the practical issues, pros and cons and draw their own conclusions - all depnds on what is important to you or what resonates most. The problem with such complexity is that I could find 100 reasons to satay and 100 to leave basedon my principles - so I have to be selective. Therefore, it comes down to much simpler decision making…
**Yeah, that sort of thinking would have had you joining far right parties in the 1930s.
That is probably as low as you can go… very surprized you have sunk so far… frankly fucking disgraceful IMHO.**
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Originally posted by @KRG
I’ve said before, I find the idea of points based systems abhorrent.
You’ve got to have points system bro! I think even you will concede this, when you think about it. What you maybe have problem with is the method of scoring, but even you, krg, will accept I think that you want to be knocking points off if the ppl is i.e. rapists or i.e. racists or i.e. Finnish bc not everyone is Equally Desirabe.
From my Employers the WTO and the EU
The campaigners from both sides of the referendum debate, seem unwilling to discuss things at granular level with pros and cons, rather they tend to offer partial views on the UK’s trading relations. Voters on national TV are, unsurprisingly, expressing their concerns about not being offered a clear picture and are unsure of making a decision. With only about two weeks to go, I doubt that the situation will greatly change and I believe many will find themselves forced to make decisions without a clear vision of the consequences.
Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
JEEZ - that is a bit ppor for you
You were making the exact same arguments, just not as poignantly, when suggesting that the electorate shouldn’t be left with the decision.
I’m suggesting the same thing, except we leave it to individuals.
- ER NOPE seems you mise the whole ‘tongue in fucking cheek’ concept - all gone right over your head…
I definitely missed the tongue-in-cheek part. Was disenfranchising the electorate part of that?
That is probably as low as you can go… very surprized you have sunk so far… frankly fucking disgraceful IMHO.
Sorry if you’ve chosen to react that way.
My intent was to find out exactly how much shit you will accept to Remain.
You’re willing to dispense with democracy, just like the Germans in the 1930s.
Downvoting.
Possible here. Not possible for the EU Commission.
Keep 'em coming. It’s nice that you get to vote on something 
It was not even me… 
That table plots immigration to EU nations in 2014. You can see that Germany reported 884k immigrants that year, with the UK reporting 632k. Clearly people aren’t only heading in our direction.
Your point about “more and more people coming to this island is unsustainable” fails to recognise that the large majority of migrants are of working age. If those people are working and properly taxed, sustainability becomes irrelevant as we can use revenue to expand our country’s infrastructure. The global population is rapidly expanding and we won’t forever be a nation of 60m people. This article, although from the Torygraph, demonstrates the demographic point i’m trying to make a bit better:
Britain’s baby boom will affect our economy more than anything Mark Carney does
Especially with the possibility of a second industrial boom around the corner with promising developments in automation & engineering, a large labour force is something that every major country needs and an easy way to ensure that level is maintained is with immigrants and a well-funded education system.
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This fella reckons Brexit is inevitable.
With an NHS in crisis, a housing market in crisis, an economy in crisis, rising child povertyand rising suicide rates – amongst other abject failures – it’s safe to say that a fair whack of the UK has a passionate hatred of David Cameron and the Conservatives. And this hatred is sure to dissuade many from siding with the enemy on the key issue of Europe. Why should they believe yet another perceived lie from Cameron?
‘I’m not going to be fooled again by him’ is the phrase that I hear time and time again.
Furthermore, the health secretary Jeremy Hunt will be teaming up with Cameron to try and persuade the UK public that staying a member of the EU is the best option for the country. It’s fair to say that Jeremy Hunt’s current popularity is approximately equal to or slightly worse than syphilis.
In the current climate, a partnership of David Cameron and Jeremy Hunt vying for your vote to remain in the EU seems about as enticing as Lord Voldemort and Cruella De Vil asking for your solemn obedience and servitude.
Yep, I’ve thought we’ll go all along.
Very interested to hear how that quote isn’t about the personalities involved.
Frank Field, the Labour Party perma-rebel, regardless of leadership, has got a decent piece in the Guardian.
The Labour party finds itself in the very dangerous position of having only 4% of its MPs supporting leave but, in one opinion poll, 44% of its members doing so. My pro-EU colleagues in the parliamentary party should not expect to have any material effect on this huge gap if the messenger changes but the message stays the same.
He concludes:-
With youth unemployment still close to 50% in many of our continent’s southern neighbours – notably in Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal – it is obvious that Europe isn’t working for workers any more. Millions of Labour’s voters have noticed and are voting to leave the EU as a result. They’ve heard politicians say that Brussels is about to change for the better if only we are all patient once more, and they know it never does change.
Our voters are wiser on this big question than Labour’s leaders, and I hope if Brexit does occur on 23 June a “freedom flame” will start to burn across the continent and social democratic parties, trade unionists and social justice campaigners will rise up against the existing EU model. It’s a model that suits Goldman Sachs and big businesses who want cheap labour. It suits agricultural industries rather than the families shopping for groceries. It’s not a social Europe. It’s not a workers’ Europe. It’s not a modern Europe. It’s time to leave.
So we get a bigger workforce we get more money to improve the infrastructure but my question is “Where are we going to put this infrastructure?”
A city the size of Southampton every year, the transport infrastructure needed to sustain that, the extra cars on the road where are they going to go. The schools, the shops, the hospitals where are they going to build and who are they going to be staffed by?
Do you really want to turn this green and pleasent land into Trantor?
Especially with the possibility of a second industrial boom around the corner with promising developments in automation & engineering
Surely though promising developments in automation and engineering will mean less jobs for people?
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Edit “Where are the people going to live until we build the infrastrcuture?” we already have a housing crisis, more and more homeless people, overcrowding in the inner cities yet we want more people to come here?
I know, sooner or later maybe we’ll not be seen as the Xanadu that we appear to be and the numbers will decline but we’ll still be a bloated little island.
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Read the article. It concludes with:-
However, voting without taking the pros and cons into account, and deciding your opinion merely in accordance with which side you hate the least, is practically equivalent to cutting off your arse to spite your elbow.
And will be a lesson in both reading the entire question & deploying sarcasm at the appropriate times 
Originally posted by @BTripz
So we get a bigger workforce we get more money to improve the infrastructure but my question is “Where are we going to put this infrastructure?”
A city the size of Southampton every year, the transport infrastructure needed to sustain that, the extra cars on the road where are they going to go. The schools, the shops, the hospitals where are they going to build and who are they going to be staffed by?
Do you really want to turn this green and pleasent land into Trantor?
Especially with the possibility of a second industrial boom around the corner with promising developments in automation & engineering
Surely though promising developments in automation and engineering will mean less jobs for people?
Look outside the South of England and you’ll see exactly where that infrastructure will go. I have torn loyalties as I want to preserve the green belt but with the global population rising as quickly as it is, that may be a doomed wish.
With regards to automation, surprisingly we would actually stand to do very well. We are a service economy, not industrial, which is why there is little manufacturing left in the UK. However, the advent of automation technology in the US has actually seen many companies move operations away from countries where labour is cheap and back to the US, where there is a more skilled and educated workforce. Admittedly, widespread automation could pose a problem in places like the retail sector - however this is an inevitability as the technology is developing rapidly and companies aren’t going to just ignore it. That’s a bridge we’ll have to cross when we come to it!
Not my doing, but I dont think this is as irrelevent as Our glorious leader likes to suggest… But all of these people and institutions would obviously have also voted for for fascists in the 1930s… (granted some would…)
A good friend of mine came up with a great idea. If you don’t have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum (I don’t blame you) and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out.
Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:
• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD
Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:
• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• That idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
_ • Keith Chegwin _
• David Icke
• Pap
So, as I said, if you can’t be bothered to look into the real facts and implications of all this in/out stuff, just pick the list that you most trust and vote that way. It really couldn’t be more simple.
Highlighted in bold is the worst cunt of them all obviously…
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