So you align with the tories who want to crush the worker, nice one, you’re a real socialist.
Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
Its not a question of trust Pap, but one of informed decision making. I simply do not believe that those who are in pocession of all the facts and make and informed choice for either side will be sufficient to determine the outcome - I know i wont be in pocession of all the facts so should I abstain? I trust anyone who is in pocession of all the facts to chose based on their values and judgement. I dont ‘trust’ myself, because I dont have time to dig deep enough to get the infomation I need… yet I can vote…
No-one is in possession of all the facts. That is democracy for you, the theory being that you would elect someone representative in possession of slightly more facts to act on your behalf. It has rarely worked in practice, of course.
If you feel you need more information, get more information - and treat it like you do all propaganda. Everyone is trying to give you the best possible or worst possible arguments according to their outlook.
I think Bearsy solidified the concept of what we call deal breakers earlier in the thread. Mine are:-
- Democratic deficit in the EU Commission
- Secret negotiations of pan-continental treaties
- Austerity meted out by troika
- Suspension of democracy to serve financial interests
- Foreign entanglements due to extended borders
- The near criminalisation of public service initiatives
- The punitive morsels Cameron calls a deal. This is minor, but if we vote to remain, we just penalise people that are already here, many of them working.
You’ve got to work out what your deal breakers are.
Germans paying blood money to Turkey when there is a case for it not being a safe Country.
Germans squeezing their Greek EU counterparts until it can not function.
The Lisbon Treaty.
Lord Hill and his democratic mandate.
Consent or a lack of it in nearly all EU things.
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Very good article by Sadiq Khan in the evening standard tonight. Well written and fully supportive of remaining.
Upvoted for the Lisbon Treaty. Great example of the EU in action. It started life as the European Constitution. In that form, it got a clear no from Europe’s citizens. So it implements the exact same proposals through a treaty to circumvent those awkward people.
A couple of countries still aren’t keen. Ireland votes no in a referendum, so is asked to vote again until it says yes. They were among the only people to have a say in the matter, and as it turned out, they didn’t really, especially when austerity was imposed on them a few years later.
I know you barely have two braincells to rub together, but even for you this is dumb.
A) Find a single example of me calling myself a socialist. I’m sure this is in no way another (in a long line of) example of you a scribing views to people because you haven’t actually got an argument against what people said.
B) remind me again which party Boris, IDS, Liam Fox, Zac Goldsmith belong to?
Whilst we’re at it, another thing often levelled at you is a tendency to veer into racist diatribes.
Im sure it’s just coincidence you align with Zac Goldsmith, Donald Trump, UKIP, Britain First, BNP, EDL etc.
Do I need to go on?
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The left should be agianst this big corps party not your vanity project of flowers and making love to a student in Rhodes on a windswept rainy night you fanny.
OK, word soup. Well played.
So todays scare stories are…
The treasury says that your pension will be knackered if we leave
Alex Salmon said that the Scots would be off within 2 years of a Brexit (is this a promise?))
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Originally posted by @CB-Saint
So todays scare stories are…
The treasury says that your pension will be knackered if we leave
The treasury can fuck off with pensions. It’s not like they’ve protected them before, and isn’t like they’re implementing them properly now. If I take on a single person that isn’t me, I have to start running a fucking pension scheme. Huge blocker on new businesses.
Alex Salmon said that the Scots would be off within 2 years of a Brexit (is this a promise?))
Always makes me laugh. Swap one set of wankers for another set of wankers that you can’t vote out. That’s the fucking folly of Scottish independence for you.
So to sum up the risks of leaving, there will be:
A house price collapse
The cost of travel will rise
Increased risk of terrorism
All trade with the EU would dry up
Cost of food would increase
800,000 jobs would be lost
World War 3 would break out
Pensions would be hammered
Scotland would leave the Union
There would be travel restrictions to EU
Workers right would be abolished
there would be sangette style camps in Kent
The City of London would be destroyed as the banks flee
I’m sure I have missed a few. Given that DC GO is telling us this is what is going to happen, then surely they were criminally negligent in giving us the vote in the first place. Why on earth would we leave if that lot is the outcome?
Unless, of course, it is just bullshit.
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We should all not forget that in the original "common market " the French and Germans would not let us enter. they only allowed us in when it suited them.
Lets not make the same mistake and leave when it suits them.
Leave on 23rd June.
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The French/German duopoly is yet another issue Remain refuses to address.
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I finished my degree in 1996 and one of the major areas of debate then was how European Integration could hope to become deeper or/and wider when there was a lack of democracy within it’s institutions. Could integration be driven solely by the political will of member states’ governments? Could a common european identity be forged simply by increasing shared legislation? Or would the ‘citizens of Europe’ demand democratic representation in a reformed, empowered European Parliament?
20 years later the project is still driven by the Commission. The citizens of Europe still lack effective democratic representation in the EU. The EP is a lame duck. Another cog in a Kafkaesque EU mechanism designed to keep the power in the hands of the political elite.
On the 23rd of June we get a say. You can guarantee that the EU wishes we didn’t.
Right, I’m off to talk shit about bollocks. (No offence pap).
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The French paraded into that conference room in 1967 full of the media and humiliated the British, they led us up the garden path then and betrayed us.
To all the Pro’s research that bit of history.
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Originally posted by @Goatboy
I finished my degree in 1996 and one of the major areas of debate then was how European Integration could hope to become deeper or/and wider when there was a lack of democracy within it’s institutions. Could integration be driven solely by the political will of member states’ governments? Could a common european identity be forged simply by increasing shared legislation? Or would the ‘citizens of Europe’ demand democratic representation in a reformed, empowered European Parliament?
20 years later the project is still driven by the Commission. The citizens of Europe still lack effective democratic representation in the EU. The EP is a lame duck. Another cog in a Kafkaesque EU mechanism designed to keep the power in the hands of the political elite.
On the 23rd of June we get a say. You can guarantee that the EU wishes we didn’t.
Ummm, calling Goatboy to the EU thread, it looks like someone has nicked your Sotonians login! Where the feck did this coherent political and social argument come from??
Right, I’m off to talk shit about bollocks. (No offence pap).
Ah, that’s better, back to the real Goatboy.
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First of all, what a fucking picture. Kind of blows you away.
This is happening in France at the moment.
Woman gets applauded on BBCQT for slamming Tory cuts during Brexit debate
A BBC Question Time audience member received a rapturous response on Thursday evening when she explained why she isn’t backing Brexit.
She said: “The largest comment against remaining in the EU seems to be all this red tape, this democracy that isn’t happening.
“I’m not sure I want to hand back more power to a government that’s made £12 million (sic) of cuts to welfare, that’s seen child poverty rise.
“I just don’t want to see that. It doesn’t seem that if they get all that power they’ll be doing things for the people.
“They need someone to answer to.”
Her comments were met with applause and even a whoop from the rest of the audience.
Whilst she makes a fair point about the cuts she fails to realise that the EU have done nothing to stop the plans being implemented in the first place, so what makes here think that the UK staying in the EU will suddenly make them intervene?
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That is a cracking photo.
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The out argument won last night on QT and Lucas looked quite out of place which she doesn’t normally do, Miliband looked and spoke like he was a nobody and even the panel thought that as well!
The arguments from the remain camp are far more desperate and hateful than the leave campaign is, they know their game is up regardless of the vote, things will change.