Yes, I would.
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You’re right. But again - oh the arrogance of a man in his 20s defining what women are more driven to be. Maybe he should ask women?
I’ve yet to meet a woman at work who doesn’t have career aspirations of promotion, and be determined to get there.
But if by ‘driven’ he means more ‘cut throat’ then, again, he’s asking the wrong questions.
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All valid responses, @coxford_lou . Don’t mean that to sound patronising and I don’t want to come across as an apologist for Dalmore. I’m not. In fact, some of my best friends are…
I’ve now read the memo fully and I’m pretty impressed by it. I feel it is a case of a man making a highly nuanced and intellectual point AGAINST Google’s approach to diversity, and that sections of the document have been pulled out and debated outside of the context of the rest of the document.
If others haven’t already read it, take a look. I’d love to know what people think of it as a whole.
He clearly states his support for diversity initiatives, he offers his own ways in which male/female balance can be addressed, but he believes that Google’s approach is wrong and that they are shutting down debate which is making employees feel alienated.
You mention that he’s writing about issues that he has no experience of (paraphrasing - apologies) but he isn’t. He’s specifically not writing that Google should not have more females or that it should not try to change its ethnicity mix. He writes in support of those outcomes but is writing about his personal experience of working at Google and experiencing their diversity policies first hand.
Anyway, some random responses to you in no particular order…
For the record, I’m not suggesting that male and female brains are different. They might be, I don’t know. I stated that the autistic brain is wired differently from the typical brain, and that more males are diagnosed as autistic sufferers than females.
The word sufferer is important here. Baron-Cohen states that for an ASD diagnosis to be made, and for that to open up support services for the individual, the individual must be suffering. Many people on the AS spectrum do not suffer, per se, but instead thrive with non-typical abilities. And my whole argument is based on the fact that many of these people find themselves in the STEM professions.
I’m not sure if it was your haste, or it I’ve misread it, but you do seem to be polarising Damore’s comments into Male and Female. I was drawn into the discussion because Dalmore framed it in terms of Systemising/Empathising which is something I’ve read a little about.
I’m walking a fine line here by suggesting that this isn’t about gender, after all some proponents of this view of autism refer to it as Extreme Male Brain. That said, the abilities of systemising and empathising are found in both males and females (duh!). So it can’t be solely about gender. However, in studies that use Systemising/Empathising questionnaires, we can see that, statistically, Systemising brains are predominantly male and Empathising brains are predominantly female. It’s a fact (as long as you subscribe to this way of categorising information processing).
You are almost certainly correct that autism in females is under diagnosed and I should have acknowledged that. Whether that would make the distribution 50/50 is moot. But what is interesting is your assertion that females are better at faking the social side. I agree. But isn’t that the sort of ‘this-sex-is-naturally-better-at-this’ argument that got us where we are now?
I was also surprised that his memo was so forthright. I think I’m right in saying that he did this anonymously initially. So perhaps it didn’t take such a strong confidence to state a strong viewpoint. Having now read the memo from start to finish, it isn’t particularly forthright in the way it treats gender equality, but it is brutal in the way it criticises Google’s approach.
I was also interested in your reaction to his observations on males in leadership positions. You suggested (in a rush to get out the door) that he said males are more predisposed to being leaders. I read his comments as a suggestion that it was the male desire for status that means they are more likely to ignore the conflicting demands of a balanced life to find themselves in a leadership position. A subtle but important distinction. His painting of the male desire for status could also be seen as a criticism.
(in these comments I do recognise that I might just be an unintentionally biased old, white bloke)
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That doesn’t mean you are on the spectrum, it does, however, call into question your mental age.
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Ha ha ha ha - BTripz got pwned there.
[I saw a rocket too :slight\_frown:]
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Is it ok to see the Eiffel Tower?
Immediately before the part of the document you copied, @coxford_lou , was this section. I think it gives a greater balance to everything that follows.
Would love to know if you agree with this section and whether it changes or reinforces your views.
On average, men and women biologically differ in many ways. These differences aren’t just
socially constructed because:
● They’re universal across human cultures
● They often have clear biological causes and links to prenatal testosterone
● Biological males that were castrated at birth and raised as females often still identify
and act like males
● The underlying traits are highly heritable
● They’re exactly what we would predict from an evolutionary psychology perspective
Note, I’m not saying that all men differ from all women in the following ways or that these
differences are “just.” I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men
and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why
we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. Many of these differences
are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything
about an individual given these population level distributions.
Also the text in these images is important:
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I believe the issue is that if you see a rocket, the Eifel tower or Thunderbird 3 (ahem), you are seeing things at the composite or global level.
If you see H’s and then struggle to see those H’s in context, then you struggle with globalisation.
Those on the autistic spectrum can struggle with globalisation.
No, definitely not okay.
I assume you DIDN’T see the Eiffel Tower because otherwise that’d make you a deviant of the worst kind.
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Whenever i hear the William Tell overture i always immediately think of The Lone Ranger. My ‘old man’, rather snootily i thought, told me it was the mark of a philistine!
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2 errors, and 1 because I pressed the wrong button
I read it. You are right, it is nuanced and thought through. My main concern, I think, was that it was presented with the patina of a scientific report although I spotted little, if any substantiation for the claims he was making. From my (admittedly brief) exploration of this topic, I can see that this is a hotbed of scientific debate and investigation and I think his arguments would have been more convincing if he had done some detailed research and used this to support his claims.
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In the version I linked to there were a number of apparent hyperlinks under some of the concepts he was advancing. I couldn’t follow these for some reason so ‘assumed’ they were to more scholarly articles that substantiated his claims.
I’ll try to find a version that lets me see what’s behind the link.
From what I have previously read on this topic, differences between male and female brains are there but less that advertised. That generally makes sense with my experiences in the world.
In the statement above, he jumps from “many differences”, to “many of the differences are small”. Then builds his argument with a whole bunch of tidy conclusions. He should have spoken to women - when you’re in the middle of it, you have a perspective than can inform and fill in many of the curious holes. If it’s a just a small difference, then why is he making the case in the first place? The difference in numbers at Google isn’t small.
By not speaking to women, he’s conforming to the argument of the status quo. Well intentioned or not.
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There is prob quite easy way to sort all this out. Just take a load of newborn babies, half of them boys, half of them girls, and half of them transgender or whatever, and drop them in remote jungle. Wait for a bit, and see which one of them invents Snapchat.
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This version contains links and citations.
Haven’t followed too many of them, but I guess they provide (from his perspective) substantiation for the claims he’s making.
Also, some of the links seem to point to internal Google resources (i.e. intranet sites).
I saw a jelly
It was red and strawberry flavoured.
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Now I am seeing rugby posts. I would rather see jelly.
i saw boobs
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