But you can strike on patient safety can’t you?
I’m confused. I’ve had people telling me for the last 4 months that the strikes have nothing to do with pay. Now your saying the strikes had to be about pay as you couldn’t strike on principal. I assume that now the strikes will stop as the pay has been sorted out.
If the strikes weren’t about pay, and it was about patient safety, surely the strikes will continue?
Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint
This is, and has, always been about the BMA and the misrepresentation of the Governments contract to the Junior Doctors, so I’m not sure where I have called you a liar?
The BMA engineered strikes as they couldn’t agree on Saturday pay.
They presented to the Junior Doctors/Doctors that the strike was due to patient safety and unworkable nature of a 7 day NHS, as they knew that the Doctors would not strike over pay.
This is where my issue has and always will be.
Not what you said at the start of this thread.
Your issue will always be reconciling your vote with your conscience.
Sussexsaint has it bang on - “the exception that proves the rule”. It’s not just you - it’s the standard response from regretful right-wingers. Any arguable point that makes people feel less bad about their voting choice is jumped upon and treated like it is the only game in town.
It’s far easier just to vote with your conscience, imo.
The start of this thread, what in November? You’re saying that as more information makes it into the public domain you can’t shift your focus. At first I did think it was the doctors, but then it dawned on us that it was actually the BMA lying to it’s members.
I love the fact that you think this is a conscience thing. It has nowt to do with that, and more to do with the fact that even as more and more evidence comes into the contrary, people on this forum cannot accept that the BMA has acted as badly, or worse than the government by engineering strikes based on lying to their members. Frankly, I’d be amazed if we didn’t see wholesale resignations from the top order of the BMA, as I am sure a lot of their members must have lost faith with them over this whole process.
I’ve said from the outset that this is an industrial dispute, and that both sides take the piss. Jeremy Hunt lied to the public about weekend death rates, is lying about his plans for the NHS and as previous posts have illustrated, is trying to fuck it up from a number of angles, whether it’s fucking off the junior doctors with the threat of imposition or removing the bursaries.
What is your big revelation here, Cherts? That some members of the union wanted to take a hard line with the government, regardless? That doesn’t invalidate the genuine concerns of junior doctors, being forced onto a new contract to solve a non-existent problem, expected to do a job without having all the necessary staff in tow with them.
London Ambulance spent £13m on private services last year.
That seems quite a lot for something that isn’t being privatised.
I believe I said from the start this is all about money and weekend payments, if it were about patients and staff shortages where were the strikes concerning this “solely” before?
as explained by Sussex above.
Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint
Originally posted by @Sussexsaint
legally you can’t strike on principal , hence the strike was nominally focussed about ’ pay’
But you can strike on patient safety can’t you?
No, not legally. You can’t strike on something as esoteric as ‘what this represents and what the next step will undoubtedly be’.
So - they strike for ‘pay’ as that is the way around it. Government figure if the address the issue with ‘pay’ that the strikes stop and I suspect they are right. However, to assume that that is what this has been all about is not quite right as I have said far too many times before.
To suggest these professionals withdrew their care over a few quid on a Saturday is an insult ( and whatever you think it really is a few quid ) , they fucked our pension and renaged on decades of ' We know you don't get properly paid in the NHS compared with the rest of the world but we'll look after you with a decent pension', and we didn't strike. I have had a pay cut every year the last 6 years (and not tiny %ages either), but don't strike .*sigh* i am instinctively opposed to unions cos i don’t got one and in my industry If U Don’t Like It Fucking Quit, but sussex keeps talking me round with his well-reasoned arguments. It’s becoming v.difficult to think ill of ppl, with sussex around. they should have let him do the Negotiations.
Dunno man, it might have been Vehicle Maintenance or something ain’t it?
But I am not suggesting that the professionals did strike over pay, which I have repeatedly said.
I am suggesting that the BMA dressed the strike up as a patient safety issue to present to their members, as they knew they wouldn’t strike if they presented it as a pay issue.
If this new contract only addresses the pay issues, and nothing else, then what are your thoughts? Do the Junior Doctors still strike, and do they carry on rejecting the contract until those safety issues are addressed?
As I remarked upon earlier in the thread, there isn’t much unionisation in the world of IT. There are a couple of contractors unions, but they are mostly concerned with stopping changes to tax legislation. Not exactly right on.
Thing is, it’s well renumerated and IT peeps are in demand. Management are therefore careful about taking the piss.
I’ve found it weird in places I have worked (horrid dehumanising call centre) where there was no union. I reckon you should start your own union. The Bear Union. Then begin to campaign for recognition of the need for hibernation.
I guess workers at McDonalds can still join the General Workers Union??
£13m is a lot of new tyres Bearsy.
That was actually the amount spent on private ambulance cover.
Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint
If this new contract only addresses the pay issues, and nothing else, then what are your thoughts? Do the Junior Doctors still strike, and do they carry on rejecting the contract until those safety issues are addressed?
There will not be any illegal strikes, I suspect the contract that has been negotiated will make sure that the concessions regarding the pay are such that that avenue cannot be explored any further. I still haven’t seen the contract in full but I’m happy to give you my angle on it when I do.
What happens next ? Well that depends wholely on how well Hunt is suppored by his party, if they decide to barrel on regardless then there is very little anyone can do to stop them.
A lot of things are going on already, as I’ve said before. This really feels like teh last chance to stop the NHS being cut up into pieces and being gobbled up by private providers. That is not scare mongering, it’s fact.
At least we tried , all of us. Even if a lot of it didn’t get out due to the media.
Sad and scary. - I really will go now, apologies for the rants and repitition
Originally posted by @Rallyboy
as explained by Sussex above.
Expecting Baz to read. That was an error.
Originally posted by @pap
There are seven elephants waiting for you in the EU room, KRG.
Seven elephants. Not forecasts, not prognostications of doom. Actual facts that you refuse to engage with.
Whatevs mate. Keep that thread as your Brexit circle-jerk.
Deny or dismiss anyone that says leaving will have totally** negative consequences, or just lap up Baz’s bullshit. I really can’t be arsed with any of it.
**EDIT: Apologies, that was a typo. I meant any, not totally.
Originally posted by @KRG
Originally posted by @pap
There are seven elephants waiting for you in the EU room, KRG.
Seven elephants. Not forecasts, not prognostications of doom. Actual facts that you refuse to engage with.
Whatevs mate. Keep that thread as your Brexit circle-jerk.
Deny or dismiss anyone that says leaving will have totally negative consequences, or just lap up Baz’s bullshit. I really can’t be arsed with any of it.
I really think you need to look at your own content in that thread. As I’ve said elsewhere, I have found the battle lines on the EU debate very interesting. I think Barry sometimes goes over the top, goes too far to prove something that isn’t there - the Operation Black Vote poster being a recent example that springs to mind.
I also think you’re being unfair and somewhat selective in addressing the arguments. There are plenty of people putting cogent arguments forward based on facts. You’re not addressing those people - you’re picking what you perceive as low hanging fruit - Barry’s content, mostly.
That’s fair enough. We all do it. It would have been nice to see some defence of the deal breakers that have been listed there, but instead, we get an ad hominem attack on a different thread. I am fine with leaving those points unchallenged and unanswered. I’m also more than happy to let others be their own judge of the dismissive or denying party.
Absolutely brilliant news about this, the Junior Doctors have rejected the contract that was recommended by the BMA and that moron Malawana has gone. Renews my faith in the Junior Doctors, and puts another nail in the coffin of the BMA. Hopefully a new body will be formed that actually listens to it’s members.