To even discuss Mandela in the same sentence as McGuinness is like saying The Rolling Stones are a British group and so are Right Said Fred.
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Can you expand on that @rallyboy ? I’m genuinely not trolling, although it looks like I am! I don’t know enough about either of their histories, but why were they completely different? Is it purely down to the democracy issue?
Norman Tebbit is either lying through his teeth, or he is incredibly ignorant of the history of the Northern Irelaand conflict. I suspect it is a mixture of both. The whole purpose of the civil rights protest was to campaign for the civil rights of the Catholic minority in N I during the late 1960s and the early 1970s. Votes were granted in local elections only to property owners, which just about excluded Catholics. Votes in Parliamentary elections were the same, with the added bonus to the Protestants of something called the Plural Business Vote, which allowed business owners to vote multiple times, it even allowed votes by business owners to be cast in another constituency. Of course the overwhelming number of businesses were owned by Protestants. The result of this was that many towns and cities with a substantial Catholic majority were Unionist controlled, ie, Derry, Armagh, Dungannon and Enniskillen. Catholics were blatantly ndiscriminated against in the jobs market, the first question asked at an interview was,‘Which school did you go to’? If it was a Catholic one that would terminate the interview. Apprenticeships were reserved for Protestants only, Catholic school leavers had no chance. Likewise the Police Force, Catholic representation in the late sixties was 12%, the reserve police force, the Ulster Special Constabulary was comprised largely of the paramilitary Ulster Volunteers, and was exclusively Protestant.
The civil rights protests were modelled on the American civil rights marches during the Martin Luther King era. They were peaceful, although there was much brutality dished out on the unarmed marchers by the Police and paraamilitaries, some of it captured on film. This culminated on Bloody Sunday, when peaceful marchers were fired on by the British Army, 26 people were shot, 14 died, most of them unarmed and shot in the back whilst running away. Some people were shot whilst tending to the injured. This was the watershed moment when republicans turned away from peaceful protests and turned to the paramilitary IRA. Who could blame them? The actions of the British Army on Bloody Sunday was as clear an example of state terrorism as you could wish to find. And successive British governments were still desperately trying to cover it up the best part of forty years later.
Tebbit is talking out of his arse with his nonsense regarding the difference between Mandela and South Africa, and the troubles in N I, being about democracy. There was no more democracy for the Catholic minority in N I than there was in Apartheid South Africa. But i suspect that deep down he knows this really, and probably harks back to the ‘good old days’, when the ‘Fenians’ knew their place. Just as he, and his idol Margaret Thatcher, demonized Mandela as a terrorist, and gave unwavering support to the Apartheid governments of South Africa. Hypocrites of the worst kind.
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A lot of people can’t see the situation in Northern Ireland straight. Most don’t understand it, for starters. I don’t buy Tebbit’s comments. Both situations were about people not having political or civil representation.
Perhaps one of the reasons that the Catholics always lost at the polls is because so many of them fucked off to other places because they could not find work, because a system of nepotism doled out all the plum jobs to the Protestants, educated or not. They’d laugh openly in the faces of careers officer ( “My da works the ship factory. So I’ll work in the ship factory” ).
Another thing that people tend to forget is that the Troubles were probably avoidable. Before they occurred, Northern Ireland, perhaps inspired by events over the pond, held huge civil rights rallies seeking to redress the balance. Neither the Unionists or the mainland wanted to know. We responded with stuff like Bloody Sunday and colluding with paramilitaries.
I appreciate that people live in their bubbles, and that in the 1980s, the Irish were perceived by many as the enemy. Well, they didn’t simply up and become terrorists because they were bad people, or genetically engineered to blow random things up. However, we’re coming up for the 20 year anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement. Perhaps time to update our perspectives. That only happened because people like McGuinness, previously engaged in the conflict, were prepared to stake a huge amount to achieve it.
The leaders of our country have ordered how many deaths in the meantime, wrecked how many lives? Even today, we’ll probably have drone strikes going out. We _know _the collateral damage that’ll be caused. We _know _we are going to kill people other than our enemies. How is that really any different, particularly for the “collaterally damaged”?
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Oh fuck, I thought his death would result in long long long posts that we’d have to scroll through - spare a thought to those of us on mobiles who are getting RSI eh?
Sounds from pap account that they didn’t like immigrants coming over & taking their jerbs. Lack of Social Integration prob. It may be double standard, but I would be Not Ok with UKIP if they quit doing rallies and started bombing pubs.
Paul Nuttall doesn’t know how to bomb pubs, no matter how many he says he’s blown up.
yeah now I think about it, i don’t think he’d do pubs. Not many muslim pubs in uk, for some reason.
There aren’t many down Barry’s local either.
“Tsk”, he sighs. “Social integration isn’t happening”
Noooooooo! That goes on “the other thread”
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Yep … you’d think, being a Sotonians bigwig, he really should know better
oh and I don’t mean Bear btw … can’t imagine ever thinking he would know better !!
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I remember the threat of the IRA very well. I worked in London in the 70s, initially for HM Customs & Excise and later for The Times newspaper. Although the bombings weren’t frequent, bomb scares were and it was a scary time and the news was always full of “The Troubles.” Whatever the rights and wrongs of the issues, bombing innocent people cannot be condoned.
We all remember that Nice, humble Mr Mandela when he was released from prison and became a saint. We should be aware though that he used to be the head of MK, the terrorist wing of the ANC. At his trial he pleaded guilty to 156 counts of public violence which included the placing of bombs in public places, including at Jo’burg railway station. Many innocent people died. Mandela refused to renounced violence and Amnesty Int’l refused to take his case as he couldn’t be seen as a "prisoner of conscience.
History is full of terrorists who have turned to politics and peaceful methods of persuasion. As we know also, one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. History has been kind to Nelson Mandela. It will be interesting to see how history treats Martin McGuinness.
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Thought the other thread had met it’s demise, but these little reminders keep popping up.
Some people seem to be missing it 
Can put an article up on it that challenges Barry’s reasoning if you like? Of course he will dismiss it(probably something to do with sandals).
Is @barry-sanchez now officially the most interesting person on here? Before you laugh, remember this one word.
TRUMP
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Mandela was fighting apartheid, a racist system that included jail without trial and deaths in custody, a system that the civilised world denounced.
He committed acts of terrorism against this system, he was jailed, and he served a very full sentence.
Having done his time he was released when international pressure for change forced the dismantling of the white supremacist laws he had fought against.
Mandela accepted responsibility for his crimes and he came out of prison and united the two sides of the former conflict, as well as inspiring people across the world to pursue peaceful actions, and he won the Nobel Peace Prize.
McGuinness was responsible for multiple brutal murders in the name of his cause, fighting against the British government.
He negotiated his way around justice, he never offered any apologies for his past, and even went out of his way to be obstructive to the families of his victims.
So young Mandela was certainly no saint in his battle against racists, but there is a gulf of difference between the two conflicts - and the later actions of these two men.
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hmmm, I don’t remember thatcher denouncing that system as readily as you suggest or telling Dennis to stop investing in it.
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… well he certainly seems to be the most popular, there’s a lot of forum hours dedicated to him.
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No @fatso - but thankfully enough people did.
You also make the mistake of thinking that I include Thatcher, who liked cosying up to various despots, in the civilised world.
Given his personal experience of the IRA, I cannot say I blame Tebbit for his sentiments and his views on McGuiness - had the IRA done the same to me, I 'm not sure I would be as understanding. Colin Parry was remarkable by talking to the man after what the IRA did to his family. Personally I would want to shoot the bastard.
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Thanks for your replies on this everyone, it’s been very educational!
Former Liverpool player and coach Ronnie Moran has croaked aged 83.