Career advice

[Saint-or-sinner]

Sorry Mr T, that whole paragraph was a joke(apart from the people that keep this country on it’s feet), thought the dental records would’ve given it away.

I’m not trying to have a go at you and i genuinely understand your frustrations. If your mother talks to you as you describe, that’s so wrong. You come across as smart and eloquent but a little crass(look at what you said about having children. It’s every persons right and inbuilt need, no matter what they earn).

Do yourself a big favour and stop listening to what you’re supposed to do or be and take some time to think about what it is that you really want out of life, no matter what others will think.

As i said before, good luck, it’s a fucker of a decision.

[Intiniki]

Think you should go talk to someone about how unhappy you are. I cannot put my finger on it but this seems more than just wages, jobs, etc.

[Smiler]

Now I’m not knocking anyone’s ambitions to earn as much as they can, but I thought I’d share my experiences to give a different viewpoint.

Back in the 90’s, I was an IT Manager at Southampton City Council, earning around 30-35k a year, I actually enjoyed my job, as well. My ex-wife was a Deputy head at a local secondary school so between us we earned a fair bit above the average. We had about a hundred grand mortgage, no kids, and we would spend about 8 weeks a year going on overseas holidays to Europe or the USA. Sounds like I had a pretty good life.

So what did I do? I decided to chuck 17 years of marriage down the pan and move to Australia without knowing anyone out here, or even have a job (obviously there were reasons I made that choice, but they’re not important in regards to this conversation).

The first 18 months out here were hell. I flitted between a few contract jobs while I was looking for a comparable position to the one I had in the UK, had another relationship breakdown and ended up virtually broke and working 2 days a week in a shopping centre selling mobile phones.
I finally came to the conclusion that, rather than wait for the perfect job, I just needed to get on with my life. I ended up getting a contract job doing IT support for a Qld Govt department, and have been doing it ever since (although it took 5 years to move from short term contracts to permanent). Relatively speaking, I still earn less than I did 15 years ago, although the value of the Australian dollar makes it seem more appealing at the moment. I have 6 TIMES the level of debt I had back then and will be very lucky if I am able to afford to retire before I am 70.
My only “holidays” are trips back to the UK every couple of years to visit family (and to follow Saints if it’s in the football season ).

Doesn’t sound a brilliant move does it?

Well you couldn’t be more wrong. I absolutely LOVE it. I married a local lass, and, forgetting the debt levels (it’s only money and it’s MY choice to have that level of debt), I have an awesome work/life balance and live in a place I called almost call paradise. I could give details but that might just seem like I’m bragging
Now if only we could get the flight time from Australia to the UK down to, say, 6 hours instead of the 24-30 it currently takes me, then my life probably couldn’t get any better without me actually winning the lottery or something.

At the end of the day if you can’t find the perfect job/lifestyle where you are (and it’s obviously easier if you don’t have any commitments), then make a plan or set some goals and GO OUT AND LOOK FOR IT SOMEWHERE ELSE. IT could be in the UK or it could be overseas.

The world is a might big place, so take the plunge, think positive and, if possible, enjoy yourself along the way

I hope this isn’t taken the wrong way, it’s certainly not meant as a criticism of anybody else’s choice. It’s just something that works for me

[Rallyboy]

If you and your family are healthy, nothing else really matters.

[Map-Of-Tasmania]

@Please-read-to-the end-before-you-explode-with-rage-as-the-last-point-will-hopefully-add-some-context.-I-might-sound-like-a-cunt-at-times,-but-I-am-not-really

Originally posted by @MrTrampoline

1. “30k a year for a family of 4 is NOT a ‘fucking good salary’”

Its above the national median wage. It is by actual metrics a ‘good’ salary. If you’ve chosen to have a family of four on £30k then that’s your choice. Families of four don’t just happen. The causality of having children is fairly indisputable.

**This is a rather crass and does you no favours. You have made a load of assumptions and sound like Norman Tebbit in the mid 80s. Children are not a commodity or luxury item… You also need to stop going on about average wage - its meaningless as not only is the ‘mean’ in this case less meaningful than the ‘median’, but it is not reflective of any situation - single person, married, kids etc… 30k for a single person living in a shared house = loads of spare cash. 30K total household income for a married couple with 2kids and a mortgage means very little cash. **

_2) _How much, precisely, do he and his partner earn? What does he do?

It was mentioned in my previous post which you obviously did not read. He is a world class maker of classical guitar -his workshop is in him home - he can only physically build 15 or so a year becasue each takes 200+ hours and despite these selling anywhere upwards of £5000 his margin on each is less than 2k after materials and overheadsare taken into consideration.

His wife, does work part time, but for a charitable organisation so not earning anything of significance…

3. Nope. I said I couldn’t move out on my (at the time) current job, which paid £21k. You’ve stretched that to ‘£20-25k’ which is a bracket I don’t think I’ve ever used. You’re putting words in my mouth.

I would humbly suggest that 21k is between 20-25k - which an accountant should be able to tell to be honest - (This is meant with a sense of humour) , I was not going to look the exact figure up hence the range. I would assume most folk would know you did not earn a ‘range’, but a figure bwteen 20-25 which you do… the actual amount is not that relevent to the point in this case however.

4. Seriously? Average wage in London for those in their 20s please? I wonder if its higher or lower than £21k? I’m pretty sure I’m below average (unemployed now anyway).

Incidentally, I’ve never once complained about my low salary in that I’ve never said that there’s any sort of ‘injustice’ taking place. Its a market rate for the job and that’s fair enough. All I’m asking for is some understanding about why someone in my position would seek to increase their salary.

Come on, seriously, I’ve given you a tangible example of how my low salary has essentially cost me my relationship _purely due to lack of money. _Even a ‘lol-sucks-to-be-you’ reaction would carry greater empathy.

To the first point - the comment is reflective of what nearly everyone has to go through post graduation and in first jobs etc. In many cases this does not really improve for 4-5 years as typically most folks at that age are still not really sure what they want to do. We have all been there and whilst its not ideal and not great, ultimately the same rules apply today as they did when I was 22-27 a) I went to work where I could find a job, and b) I lived where I could afford… and that meant shitholes, not going out and not living in expensive cities. Things improved when I got married because we than had two shit incomes that meant were not quite so shit when combined and we could get a small mortgage and start living a little… no hols though and not much eating out either… but it was a start.

I dont want to appear insensitive but Iam not sure how money caused a breakup… if it really was money, then you may be better off… I had a fuck load of debt and Mrs ferret still took me on and 20 years later is still here ( , )

[Map-Of-Tasmania]

Continued form above…

5. you see this as the ONLY route to happiness…

OK OK OK OK OK OK OK.

Whatever our disagreements, maybe we can relate to one another, to at least some extent, on this very point. Please bear with me.

Right now. I am not happy. I am actively unhappy. To the point where being not unhappy would be frankly, an absolutely fucking massive improvement. I. Just. Want. To. Be. Normal.

I don’t know. Maybe I sound a bit dramatic. I’m an expressive guy and I wear my heart on my sleeve. I’m a bit of an ‘anti-Brit’ (as one American girl I used to know once called me), but I’m just trying to communicate my situation as best I can. I just want to find a job where I get enough money to function as a normal adult and that really is all.

**Maybe this is the issue. I dont know you and as such can only respond to what you post - and it may not really capture the reality. From my perspective, what you have described is no different from what most young people go through at that time in their lives which is why some on here have been a bit critical. But you have actively done something about it and you will have seen many gave you direct help and advice and all wish you well and hope it works out… It takes time - which I appreciate is frustrating as hell, and is likely the cause of much anxiety and unhappiness. Combine that with a breakup and you have a recipe for some ‘actively unhappy’ times. You may even have a mild drepression which is worth checking out - having been there myself, the quicker you get help the quicker its sorted. **

**I would also focus on all the positives you have in your life right now. Young, single, smart (ish) . Got through to last round of interviews with a big 4firm, have the freedom and no ties to live and work where you find what is right for you if this does not work out. In addition, it should give you a shed load of confidence - get that with PWC, you can get that far with any of them…if that is what you want. BUt dont get sucked into the feeling that earnings are the cure for unhappiness, I really dont believe it is. **

You sound like you need a fucking big man hug - consider a collective virtual one from the old scrotes at Papsweb on its way - the pointy little thing will be Bletchey’s boner (cant take him anywhere)

[MrTrampoline]

Can only get reception at the hotel WiFi (3 being funny) but cheers for the support.

Will respond in detail when I can.

I should probably make it clear that I know noones being intentionally malicious at all but it’s a nervy time as you can imagine. Gonna enjoy Milan for tonight. Have a good one lads x

[MrTrampoline]

Families of four don’t just happen. The causality of having children is fairly indisputable.

"This is a rather crass and does you no favours. You have made a load of assumptions and sound like Norman Tebbit in the mid 80s. Children are not a commodity or luxury item… You also need to stop going on about average wage - its meaningless as not only is the ‘mean’ in this case less meaningful than the ‘median’, but it is not reflective of any situation - single person, married, kids etc… 30k for a single person living in a shared house = loads of spare cash. 30K total household income for a married couple with 2kids and a mortgage means very little cash."

Sorry, bit off topic but can I just zoom in on this point? What exactly is your argument here? I mean, it is true that having kids is a choice. Are you saying that you believe that the chance to have a family/children should be available to everyone regardless of their personal finances?

[TheCholulaKid]

Originally posted by @MrTrampoline

Families of four don’t just happen. The causality of having children is fairly indisputable.

"This is a rather crass and does you no favours. You have made a load of assumptions and sound like Norman Tebbit in the mid 80s. Children are not a commodity or luxury item… You also need to stop going on about average wage - its meaningless as not only is the ‘mean’ in this case less meaningful than the ‘median’, but it is not reflective of any situation - single person, married, kids etc… 30k for a single person living in a shared house = loads of spare cash. 30K total household income for a married couple with 2kids and a mortgage means very little cash."

Are you saying that you believe that the chance to have a family/children should be available to everyone regardless of their personal finances?

Some people who are in love are poor (you know the kind of people you used in attempting to satirise me in a previous post). Some of them then have children. So, yes, poor people are allowed to have children. HTH.

[MrTrampoline]

Ok, great. Happy to agree.

But of course, they’ll need money in order to feed, clothe and shelter those children. How much do you think they need?* (a yearly salary number - roughly speaking of course).

*regardless of where the money comes from - their own earnings/family and friends’ help/government support.

[TheCholulaKid]

Originally posted by @MrTrampoline

But of course, they’ll need money in order to feed, clothe and shelter those children. How much do you think they need?* (a yearly salary number - roughly speaking of course).

*regardless of where the money comes from - their own earnings/family and friends’ help/government support.

I don’t know - why don’t you look it up?

[Saint-or-sinner]

Can’t use that i’m afraid Mr T. Far too many variables.

Do you know about the laws on marrying someone from abroad? You need to show that you earn over a certain amount to bring them here to live. It sounds a fair amount if you live in and around London, but as a Welsh MP pointed out, most of her constituents earn less than that, but have a reasonable life style and could easily support their partners. Rules say no. Can you explain how this is fair?As for the rights to have children. Would you be prepared to tell a woman fast approaching 40(body clock ticking louder each day)that she doesn’t earn enough yet to have children? A whole world of pain awaiting the man that answers yes to her face.

[MrTrampoline]

The point I’m making is this:

I get a lot of flack for being seen as money-driven, but at the same time, everyone on the thread seems to accept that for a family, even £30k isn’t a ‘fucking good salary’.

And hey? no shit. It costs more to run a family than it does to look after yourself. Agree on that one.

But with this admission comes a tacit acceptance that whilst I might not need fortunes to muddle along as I am now, there *is* a baseline that I’ll need to earn in the future in order to support a family.

And after all, you’ve said yourself that everyone ought to be able to have a family (agree again), so surely you can appreciate my concern that I need to earn enough to put myself in a position to be able to afford a family one day, no? I’m not hoping for fortunes as anyone can more-or-less tell from my posting. Just enough to make sure that that door isn’t closed to me through lack of money.

[Goatboy]

Marry a rich bird. Job done.

[MrTrampoline]

Exactly!!! Absolutely not!

But that’s the thing isn’t it? You actually *do* need to earn a fairly high baseline to have a family don’t you? Or at least, *have* a fairly high baseline of money, regardless of whether it comes from a salary/lottery win/family and friends/government etc.

[TheCholulaKid]

You don’t ‘need’ a fairly high income. It might be ideal but many millions of families have existed perfectly happily without a ‘fairly high income’.

[Saint-or-sinner]

I don’t think you do Mr T, but you do need to accept the sacrifice and hardships that come with being a parent on a basic salary. I know some wonderful families and like yourself i struggle to understand how they manage when i find out how little they bring in.

Guess we just don’t realise how little of what we take as essential really isn’t.

Now obviously all of the families that i’m using as examples live in council/social housing and generally don’t holiday or drive, but so what? They are happy in their life’s and that’s more important than any amount of money.

Aren’t mental illnesses and particularly depression more common in well off people? Would you rather be rich and depressed, or poor and happy?

[MrTrampoline]

Put a number on it. What exactly is that minimum income that a family of four needs?

Course, you’re in a slight spot of bother here because if you put it too low you’ll have to concede that theres nothing wrong with a £23k benefits cap and if you put it too high you’ll have to concede the point that it’s reasonable for me to worry that my low earnings (if things carry on the way they seem to be going) could impact on my ability to have a family in the future.

[MrTrampoline]

Settle for either given I’m poor and depressed!

The job with PwC would change both.

[Map-Of-Tasmania]

You are missing the point a little. First up the ‘figure’ is dependent on so many things, geography and local cost of living etc…but the point i am making is that it is relative to what it affords you. My friend is in his 40s… not 20s and has chosen this… he could earn a fuck load more had he chosen to continue a career path he selected at 23… when he was probably as green on these things as you are indicatuing you are with your posts… sorry but that is how you come across in your posts… They can enjoy their life and be happy, with kids on a LOW salary, not because of where they live, but because they chose a very simply life, without the trappings that YOU have inicated you consider necessary to be happy… I believe you have just been to Milan to watch football? Yet you have said your salary is insufficient to afford the lifestyle you believe is rightfully yours? Can you not see how this might irritate… given that its a bit of a contradiction?

You are missing the point when you talk about a baseline - the fact is that you can be happy even if your baseline just gets you the real essentials , roof and food… a much simpler life than the baseline for happiness you have indicated/selected for yourself. I just think you are missing the reality that there are TWO baselines, one real one (the roof and food), and the one you set yourself (lifestyle)

For nearly EVERYONE, when we start work its all about the first one… and for many it sadly never gets beyond that. For those that it does, who can afford a lifestyle choice, they are lucky, but unless born with a fucking silver spoon up your arse and free handouts (and that is much rarer than many seem to think) - its a long road to get there. Folk on here get frustrated with you because you seem rather impatient and of the believe its your right/its owed to you. That is how you are coming across in your posts… with a large dose of right wing attitude on children to boot… not going to get much empathy with that opinion I’m affraid.

Life is ALL about compomise - I would love to spend all the money I earn on new guitars, bikes or whatever…and I could do if I had chosen a single life… but I did not so all spare cash goes on family essentials and the odd holiday and house repairs and bills and fuck knows what they spend it on…choice I made. But before you try and tell me I am lucky to be able to make that choice, I was well into my 30s before we had ANY spare cash/choice. Up until then, Saturday nights were about a frozen Pizza (albeit from Waitrose - fuck I’m not that common ) a cheap bottle of wine and ‘romantic engagement’… going out? no chance unless two of us could eat and drink for a Tenner somewhere and that was in the 2000s… Its your impatience and the issue about ‘the poor having kids’ that i have an issue with - does make you sound a bit Norman Tebbit/Thatcher’s love child and that is rather disturbing.