Jesus Gay, take a breath.
I am slightly vexed this morning CB, slightly vexed. 
So in short you want to remain fur your job security?
Nopeā¦ My job is secure as can be in these times. I want to remain in because I agree with the the simple concept of unity - funnily enough i want to remain in beacuse i agree with the PRINCIPLES of the unity - even if it presents a shed load of problems. Just because the arseholes in charge wont resolve the issues, does not mean they cant beā¦ The main problems associated with the institution are no different from those we suffer from in national government. That of short termist perspetives on problems that require longterm thinking and investmentā¦something that seems impossible when career politicians are working on 4-5 year cycles.
Cameron admits he doesnāt know how migrants benefits system will work. In a move stolen from the Trump playbook, weāll figure it out later.
āyou donāt know what youāre doing. you donāt know what youāre doingā
This is the problem, the key issues that need reform are absolute red lines for most countries, therefore all that has been negotiated is window dressing and wonāt really change anything. In fact, I suspect the the EU will erode these concessions over the course of time anyway.
The idea of union is brilliant but proven to be an expensive bureaucratic reality, its the ever encroaching political union that has got us to where we are,of course the smaller Countries want this, the larger ones want to bring London to heel, controlling London should be for us to do, having and shaping laws should be for us to do.
Its all going to crumble anyway, Greece is very very close to a 2nd meltdown, their distrust of the EU is growing by the day, quite right to, been shafted by self serving Germans. Surprise surprise national agendas over EU ones, Iāll say it again until national ideals and agendas are cast aside (never) then how can a union genuinely work? Would a Serb or Pole (just see their Government) do that? Even a mild totally fair minded Englishman?
No.
Well Iām really undecided on this and that troubles me because Iām usually quite firm on what I believe about stuff.
I see that our workers and citizens are well protected by being in the Union. If we were to leave, I shudder to think what this current government would do to those hard-earned rights that protect us all. On that basis alone, Iād be inclined to stay.
But Iām appalled by the bullying tactics of the EU particularly towards Greece. The EU compounded Greeceās problems, especially the Germans. Iāve been watching a BBC doc about Greece. It was about the country and history and not a political programme at all. But I was amazed to learn that Greece has, for example, more tanks than the UK and France combined. Most of its military hardware is German and the manufacturers bribed the Greeks to buy them. And the EU also bullies Greece to do far more to deal with the refugee crisis although it doesnāt seem to give this poor bankrupt country the financial wherewithall to do so. Because of all this, Iād be inclined to leave.
Iām looking forward to hearing facts and figures, I confess that Iād be delighted if Cameron got a bloody nose over this but I find it quite worrying that I could be aligning myself with IDS, Michael Gove et al by voting āoutā.
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Putting the issue to one side, it is fascinating to watch how the two sides are lining up. All the traditional alignments are cast aside and new alliances being formed.
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Ruth succinctly states a case very close to my own. There are benefits and there are concerns.
Thing is, I donāt see a great deal of appetite within the EU to reform itself. The Labour leadership is of the view that we stay in and sort stuff later, one which Iām not necessarily sure will be effective. You almost need something like Brexit actually happening to shake the institution out of its delusions.
If we vote to stay in, itāll go down like the AV or Scottish referendums. āThatās the issue put to bedā, theyāll say.
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Originally posted by @hoofinruth
I confess that Iād be delighted if Cameron got a bloody nose over this but I find it quite worrying that I could be aligning myself with IDS, Michael Gove et al by voting āoutā.
A pretty good rule of thumb that, hoofinruth. If IDS says one thing then do the opposite.
Re: Greece - I find it hard to have too much sympathy given their lack of self control. Though watching them having their hand forced in recent years hasnāt been the most edifying of spectacles.
Fuck IDS.
Heās a cunt.
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I saw that interesting program, very fair and balanced.
The issue of a fairer EU wont go away as another Nation (Denmark or Poland) will take up the mantle, its a dying trade block anyway, its antiquated.
Two further points
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Iām very very worried about TTIP and I think, were we to leave, we wouldnāt be party to this agreement although no doubt the current government would instigate something equally insidious. But staying in and letting TTIP be passed would threaten our sovereignty more than a barrow load of bent bananas
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Jim Davidson is backing Farage and Galloway. Thatās enough to put me off āoutā
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This is why we are in Europe, cheap labour, be proud boys and girls, shit living standards,money sent home, Victorian living practices, the real unified EU working for the average workerā¦
Anyone want some Lonsdale or Slazenger?
BJ out, predictably. I can see a coup coming if we vote āoutāā¦
This is exactly the stupid scaremongering I was talking about. TBF the media will spin the living shit out of every statement anyone makes to get a headline, but FFS how about the media and politicos treat us like adults and put forward their arguements in a reasonable manner and let us decide if the sky is falling in or not.
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Yeah, it wasnāt unexpected, and I donāt necessarily disagree with your assessment, but it comes to something when Boris Johnsonās opinion within the Tory party holds weight. The only thing he has ever been good at is pretending to be a buffoon. What Bizarro universe do we live in where the Prime Minister of the fucking country has to take his opinion into consideration?
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