Is it true that we pay £30m per day more to Europe than we get back in i.e. Subsidies etc? That is what bro at work was saying. Makes you think. I could do with an extra £30m per day.
Edit: He also said it would’ve been twice that, but the Thatcher woman done Negotiations.
Originally posted by @pap
We’ve had a couple of days of Boris being “out”, and his internal situation seems to be unravelling.
The thought of anyone’s internal situation unravelling makes me feel quite unwell actually.
Especially if the only thing holding you together was a Boris Johnson pork sword suppository.
Goodness gracious me.
Scaringly scary
So you’d head elsewhere the Tories were still in power after the next election then?
Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint
So you’d head elsewhere the Tories were still in power after the next election then?
We’ve had two general elections in which the Conservatives have either led or been the government. I happen to know that like myself, intiniki did not move out of the country on either occasion.
Frankly, I don’t know how you arrived at that conclusion.
Best possible theory is lingering programming instructions from that infamous Sun headline, “Will the last person to leave Britain turn the lights off?”, because that reflects Murdoch’s thinking. He would fuck off if the situation didn’t suit him, and did, actually.
For most people, that’s not even an option or a consideration.
But like I say, that’s just my best possible theory. Bit of a leap. If you’ve got evidence of left wingers deserting the country after general election victories, I shall be fascinated to see it.
That’s a great article, although as I’m sure it will be pointed out, is from a right wing think tank. Irrespective of that, it gives a good outline as to most peoples biggest fears on leaving - what it means for british businesses trading in Europe.
???
I was just using her post saying ‘Wondering where I will head to when BoJo becomes pm. I was going to put a smiley but not really joking about such awful possibility.’ So I asked if she’d prefer TM. She said any Tories. Hence, she would leave if the Tories won at the next election.
Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint
???
I was just using her post saying ‘Wondering where I will head to when BoJo becomes pm. I was going to put a smiley but not really joking about such awful possibility.’ So I asked if she’d prefer TM. She said any Tories. Hence, she would leave if the Tories won at the next election.
Fair enough, didn’t see that post.
Been musing more on the situation this presents for the various political parties. I can only see Labour coming out of this in an improved position, despite the leadership publicly campaigning to stay in.
As the earlier image indicates, I reckon both outcomes hurt Cameron. If we vote to stay, he is still going to have problems with his backbenchers, especially if the usual pre-referendum shenanigans are seen to occur. The establishment got through the last two referenda unscathed because broadly speaking, the number of people looking to change things was too concentrated, or in the case of the Lib Dems, crippled with a crap choice from the start and not being able to counter the NO2AV propaganda.
I think this is different. There is broad support for an exit, at least a temporary one. Completely accept that people have different reasons for wanting out, which is another reason why it’s so dangerous. People aren’t going to be easily marginalised and you can take negative campaigning too far, particularly if you’re stupid enough to insult the intelligence of the electorate. While the press had no trouble finding individual incidences of racism within UKIP, I always thought the broader “if you vote UKIP you’re a racist” tactic was counterproductive, particularly in the European elections. UKIP have found this out themselves after they went dirty for the general election and even dirtier for the Oldham West by-election.
In leaves Cameron with a fuckload of pissed off backbenchers, and voters, many of whom will have voted in a general belief that the Tories would get them out of Europe. They’ve certainly tub-thumped on the issue enough. If we stay in, they’ll correctly feel that the deal we got wasn’t good enough. It wasn’t. He won’t survive the carnage.
If we vote out, Cameron is gone, his crediblity is done and you would expect Johnson to be the heir-apparent.
Either outcome removes a fundamental weakness for Labour. If we vote in, most of the Labour Party will be okay with that. If we vote out, there’s a good chance that the country could be in disarray as things are worked out, perhaps too much for the Conservative spin machine to handle. If Boris gets the job, the mask will not only slip, but fall to the ground shattering. He thinks he’s had media exposure? Not yet. The buffoon act will not survive in the national consciousness until 2020.
Europe and immigration are a big weakness for Labour, and by holding the referendum, Cameron has neutralised it for them. In, and Jezza can say “this is what we campaigned for and what people wanted”. He can also argue that his more conciliatory position makes him a better candidate for future negotiations with the EU. Out, and it’s a problem that he doesn’t have to deal with. Corbyn stood by his stated position, the British people chose something different. As long as he respects that choice, Labour are golden.
Cameron has played this all wrong.
Not sure I agree re the Tory back bench and the In scenario. Sure they will be pissed off, but ultimately they got their referendum and the people spoke. If they then start squawking, they will get mullered for being poor losers.
Yeah, I possibly didn’t make as direct a link as I wanted between pre-referendum shenanigans and an in vote. There is still a huge appetite for independence in Scotland, partly because many of the Yes crowd are a lot younger, but also because they feel as if they’ve been done up. We don’t really get to see a great deal of that, but if you search the Scottish blogs and publications, you’ll see a lot of it about.
If we vote in and have been similarly conned on a last minute promise, there will be anger. The In campaign is already using scaremongering over the economy as one of its key points. If the Outers feel like people have simply been frightened or lied to, there will be anger.
I sourced that quote from yesterday. Shame on me, it was Jeremy Corbyn. The Artist Taxi Driver kept using it in replies and I hadn’t seen the debate yet.
And that is about the size of it. What we want out of the EU is not to pay certain benefits to newcomers and to be able to say no ever closer Union. Everything else remains the same, and I’m sure that if we stay in, they’ll just stop labelling stuff as “ever closer union”.
It’s already a dirty campaign and the PM asked for and got peanuts. Cameron hasn’t put himself in the position to run this cleanly; fear and smear will be the order of the day. His backbenchers aren’t going to hold back on the shit if they’re asked to digest that.
My Mrs has said to me that if the tories get in again then she wants to sell up and leave the country. Scary thing is that she actually means it.
To be honest I feel the same way with Corbyn, although I very much doubt that will happen.
Another interesting article:
Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint
To be honest I feel the same way with Corbyn, although I very much doubt that will happen.
It’ll be terrible. Your kid will get educated for nowt. Other people’s kids will be fed. Food banks will have to close. You’ll be putting up with new infrastructure, and you’ll see the hated people wrest democratic control over key industries.
Don’t blame you for running away from that potential dystopia 
But I also won’t have a job, or if I do I’ll be taxed extremely heavily on my income, my house will devalue massively as the economy crashes and I’ll have to learn Russian when we get invaded. Prefer to live somewhere with more prospects than a Corbyn Britain - was thinking Nigeria?
The people’s flag is deepest red,
It shrouded oft our martyred dead,
And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold,
Their hearts’ blood dyed its ev’ry fold.
Then raise the scarlet standard high.
Within its shade we’ll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We’ll keep the red flag flying here.
Aston Martin have chosen Wales to build the new Aston out of 20 other competing countries worldwide - no fear of a Brexit from them then.
I see Gove has come out saying the “deal” is not legally binding on the ECJ until the treaties are changed which apparantly could be years!!! On that point, do some countries have to have a referendum every time there is a treaty change or can modifications just be pushed through?