:brexit: Brexit - The Ramifications

Reasonably serious discussion
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Originally posted by @areloa-grandee

Revotes… Undemocratic? Well is it not just a question of time? After all how is a referendum different to a general election where folks change their mind and can vote out a shit Government after 5 years…?.

In many ways. First, there’s frequency. You’re guaranteed a GE at least once every five years. The last poll on Europe before this one was in 1975.

Then, there’s reasoning. Referendums are usually something that MPs haven’t gotten around to sorting, either because they don’t want to or because they don’t think the political will is there. Handing it off to the public absolves them of the some of the responsibility, and prevents the issue from constantly re-emerging.

They’re there to settle issues conclusively, for a long time. They’re the opposite of general elections in that sense, which are always about deciding how the next Parliament will be constituted.

And therein lies the problem. we can’t just see how it goes for a few years and then change our minds - so naturally it’s NOT the same as the usual lies and crap manifesto rubbish we get before a GE.

As I’ve said before, the Advertising Standards Authority has no power over referendum.

It can intervene in a general election. You’re lucky that you got a lie so close to the truth. They could have claimed that “staying in the EU will make your bollocks fall off” and legally gotten away with it.

This is far more life changing and longterm so how the fuck can there be any intelligent person who is happy that the deciding vote was in effect cast by fucking numptucunts hellbent on keeping ‘dark’ folk out of Britain or fucktards who who believed the 360million lie?

Reading that, you might ask how many people read it correctly in the first place. 350, not 360 million.

seriusly - Is democracy really upheld under such circumstances ?

There are two versions of democracy going on here. The idyllic one you think exists, and the one that does.

As it goes, this is more democratic than your average GE. A popular majority has voted for the winning position.

Just 25% of voters in the last GE voted Tory.

pap , you once went as far as to suggest that the Eu commission was democratic because it was unelected and we had no voice in what they govern… So how is it democratic that after being lied to, the people have no voice in how we go foward in Europe…?

You’re lied to every single day. You were lied to by the Conservatives ahead of the 2010 election and throughout their present tenure. Those lies have been big lies, and have cost people their lives or their loved ones.

Lies like “austerity is necessary”, “we’re all in this together” or “No top down reorganisation of the NHS”. If you’re worried about the damage mendacity can do to an electorate, I’d start a little further back. Prior to that, “WMDs exist in Iraq” and “they could reach Britain in 45 minutes”.

Politicians are liars. That’s the truth. Apologies if I’m the first to break it to you.

Murdoch was all pally with Farage at a recent garden party and still you feel that this blatant media control of the situation is democratic??? FFS how can you? Just because it was the result you wanted to satisfy your principles, does not make that right… Or democratic - you know it, but will never admit it…

I won’t admit it because I still think I’ve done the right thing.

And again, what the fuck has Farage got to do with any case I’ve made?

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If I stood alongside Farage and the far right on an issue I would wonder how I got there and I’d understand why people would be curious about my motives, especially if I launched an aggressive defence.

An alternative low-key approach has been taken by one or two on here - a quiet reflection on what they may or may not have triggered.

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785

To blame one persons vote for Brexit is ridiculous. There were 17 million other fucktards that voted that way as well.

But you know what, that’s democracy, and we’ve got to deal with it. For those of us that are young enough and skilled enough, we have the option to emigrate if it all goes down the pan. For everyone else, they’ll just have to suck it up, and potentially work harder for less money. May be a good thing for this country and the people to have a bit of hardship (if this goes as badly as people fear it night).

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I voted remain.

Am I asking for or expect a revote?..No. Would I like one?..of course but it won’t happen, just like I’d like to win the lottery. Am I whining about it? You bet…but I’m a human being, it’s what we do best. Would Bazza be doing the same if the boot was on the other foot…a most definite YES!

So get down off your high horse Baz…the view from the moral high ground on which you unexpectedly find yourself must be breathtaking.

Come on down and sit with the rest of us in this shit infested swamp…unless of course you have a rare insight as to what will happen next.

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This referendum, more than any, proved that you don’t need to “stand alongside” someone to desire the same ends.

Corbyn refused to share a platform with Cameron, quite sensibly in my opinion.

If Bob Crow and Tony Benn were still alive, they’d be standing alongside Farage (using the RB interpretation) as well.

Does that make them the same?

788

Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint

To blame one persons vote for Brexit is ridiculous. There were 17 million other fucktards that voted that way as well.

Have you been reading this thread?

It seems to be the assertion here, and I think you’re doing a disservice to around 12 million people. They’ll be the people that didn’t vote UKIP or for a far right party in the 2015 general election.

But you know what, that’s democracy, and we’ve got to deal with it. For those of us that are young enough and skilled enough, we have the option to emigrate if it all goes down the pan. For everyone else, they’ll just have to suck it up, and potentially work harder for less money. May be a good thing for this country and the people to have a bit of hardship (if this goes as badly as people fear it night).

I’ve had numerous opportunities to emigrate and have spurned them all. I can’t stand the weather, but can’t be without my own people, the sense of humour and our culture. Every time I come back from overseas I feel like kissing the ground, except I don’t, because I use Manchester a lot, and its filthy :lou_lol:

I’m sticking around to see what can be done with this place. That’s what people need to do, and as cathartic as it might be to rage on an internet forum, I’m personally getting much more out of attempting to be part of the political settlement. I’d advise others do the same.

If there is one good thing to emerge from both of these referendums, it has been people re-engaging with politics. I hope they stay engaged, because the collection of no-marks and shithouse in both parties needs to be replaced, and we’ve all been moaning for far too long that there aren’t enough real people in politics.

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Pap is the only one who thinks I hold him personally responsible for the clusterfuck so let’s nail that myth.

If you can be arsed to look back I’m sure you’ll see occasions where I’ve been respectful to him and used language that distances him from the racists and morons who didn’t understand the question.

He has stepped forward as the defender of Leave by launching an aggressive defence - others have quietly kept council while they see whether they have fucked up or not.

That may be why he has become a target for people who can already see damage - but he loves being a target.

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Originally posted by @Rallyboy

Pap is the only one who thinks I hold him personally responsible for the clusterfuck so let’s nail that myth.

It’s not just you. Bucks is busy telling us about redundancies in London. He has a right to do that, just as I have a right to point out the steelworkers that lost their jobs inside the EU. Unlike the London set, they’ll have much more difficulty finding new work.

We’ve had GA’s heart over head analysis, imploring me to realise that I’ve made the wrong call, coupled with a desire to re-run the poll because it didn’t go the way he’d like, and presumably, this is the first time he feels the British electorate has ever been misled in the run up to a poll.

Even darling bletch put his unmovable stake in the ground and left it there. It says “Leave voters are to blame, especially you pap, you little bastard”. Probably.

If you can be arsed to look back I’m sure you’ll see occasions where I’ve been respectful to him and used language that distances him from the racists and morons who didn’t understand the question.

He has stepped forward as the defender of Leave by launching an aggressive defence - others have quietly kept council while they see whether they have fucked up or not.

That may be why he has become a target for people who can already see damage - but he loves being a target.

I don’t love being a target. I endure it, rather than enjoy it.

However, when you’re carpet-bombing the Leave side with blame charges, I reckon it’s only fair some of those targets are capable of firing back.

I’ll agree with aggressive defence.

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All very depressing. My wife works on EU funded research projects at the Uni. The current crop of projects will be completed within 3 years. they have attracted a talented bunch of researchers from all over the EU and further afield as the EU funded projects have enabled them to create a renowned centre of excellence in particular fields.

That is all set to be lost. The University will lose out, research projects wil decrease and my wife will be out of a job. Not good times.

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792

No I don’t, I dont have a clue in to what will happen next, why didn’t the Government have a plan? It was for the exiters to campaign for and for the Government to actually implement it so God knows why people are accusing the exiters, blame Cameron for giving it as a election promise.

Blame Juncker who two days before said there’d be no more concessions.

Blame the EU for spending money of toruism projects that benefits tourists who can afford to travel as opposed to residetns of that town who have no money to go into town let alone travel afar, this may or may not be a domestic issue but are the affected going to see it that way?

Blame open borders which drive down wages for people at the bottom, we have a responsibility to protect the most vulnerable not the middle classes .

Blame the EU’s lack of actual worthiness in issues like Crimea which could be argued it agressive stance gave Russia an excuse for the illegal invasion.

Blame the EU for the toothless response, the Russians are still there.

Blame the young for not voting in which of only 36% voted and of that 75% voted to remain.

I could list many other domestic reasons that have rightly or wrongly been tagged onto this, the way the vote was done was a chance for the little man in the forgotten town to kick the big man regardless of what it was for, some have nothing really nothing so why not vote for change? I certainly don’t blame them? They have no jobs? They have nothing, no means to leave and work elsewhere, no skills and no hope, they feel lost and this was thier chance and by Christ didn’t they take it?

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793

You call for unity but I suspect there are many people in the UK who have lost total confidence in a huge proportion of their fellow citizens.

I would no longer trust man on the street with any big decision.

_ But that’s democracy RB you hysterical twat…_

Indeed it is.

But at the moment the country I love looks nasty and backward.

Millions read The Sun, millions love Eastenders and celebrity gossip, millions support the far right - yes they are all entitled to vote…but I don’t trust them to make sensible decisions, and you can’t blame me for feeling like that.

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If people have voted to leave the EU because they don’t like UK Goverment policy, then they can be accused of being complete fuckwits.

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796

Anyone who voted leave because they thought the Dorne scenes in season 5 of Game of Thrones were “boring” deserves all the criticism they get IMO

797

Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez

Blame the young for not voting in which of only 36% voted and of that 75% voted to exit.

Thought it was 75% young ppl voted Remain?

798

I have to say I’m very surprised that you don’t see this country as nasty and backwards, especially considering the list you made right after that statement.

I’m not overly surprised at the vote although obviously disappointed, because a lot of our citizens are on the ‘special’ scale and are very easily duped.

It’s why Labour tends to get so many votes from thick Northerners, and we have to live with that. :lou_wink:

799

Sorry will edit.

800

It was, but it’s a Barry post so you have to try and interpret what he writes…

801

Why, Government policy was to advocate us being in Europe? The Government gave the vote, were arrogant enough not have a leaving plan and then lost the vote, what sort of privileged inbred would do that? Cameron’s legacy will be the man who broke the union and who got us out of the EU when he didn’t want it, no wonder Samantha is back on the tabs.

802

There is no need to interpret what you write Cherts, you make it loud and clear what you are my boy.