Ha! You can’t debate as good as Turkish! Loser!
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There are sadder folk about. There are folk, believe it or not, that cannot have a robust discussion on the most important issue of our day without resorting to personalising the argument, insults.
Seriously, what have you added to the discussion with that post, apart from a resounding demonstration of your own, lost position?
I get it, @Bathsaint - you want a way out of this lost contest, but you don’t want to lose face. Therefore, frame your opponent as unreasonable, even when his views have majority support in this country.
If he doesn’t give you views you don’t like, then paint him as a religious zealot. If I’m precious about anything, it’s about democracy.
I am on record on this forum saying that if the EU were wanted by its people, decided democratically, and was democratic top to bottom, I’d be all for it.
You know, like being a member of a fully functioning federal state that people wanted?
I am up for that. I’d like that more than an independent Britain. Pragmatism and the matter of historical record have taught me that the EU will not reform in that direction unless forced to. That is why I voted out.
I know that messes with your dogma. Reality is going to bite into it even harder.
Cheers @Saint-or-sinner. Must admit that’s not one I automatically go for over the toast and cereal first thing in the morning.
But isn’t ONS an organ of the Government; the Government that lies and tells half truths as and when it suits them? Askin’ for a friend like…
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It isn’t a contest, though, is it? You may think so, but really, it is about all our futures - mine, and my family’s. Yours as well. All I want is a good future for everyone but happen to think, based on research and evidence, that we’re heading for disaster. We may not be and I’m more than happy to concede that if everything turns out fantastically well, the right decision was made. But I can’t see how what you’re doing is any more than crossing your fingers, closing your eyes and wishing on a star that things will work out well.
I know this messes up your dogma and I think reality will bite hard - fucking hard. And we’ll all be losers.
Still, you’re winning the internet through sheer bloody mindedness and persistence rather than your lofty ideals of ‘debate’ so well done you.
Has he won the internet yet?
Most of that money is independently verifiable, and as far as I know, we still don’t have a pro-Brexit government.
We’re posting record deficits with the EU. Rest of the world trade has always been better in terms of surplus and deficit.
The simple fact is this. When we trade with the EU, more of our money ends up in their respective businesses and exchequers than ends up in ours. When we trade with the rest of the world, we’re the net beneficiaries.
That would be fine if we could pick and choose the places we trade with. For certain items, especially food, our membership has limited our shopping options.
You are old enough to remember the EEC intentionally breaking the traditional rules of supply and demand to keep those prices up. Beef mountains, butter mountains - all to keep French farmers in pocket while nations in the third world starved.
It might be bearable if it wasn’t so fucking obscene.
I’m not looking into a goldfish bowl, @Bathsaint. I am in the goldfish bowl. This is a process that can be shaped by those within it. I’m not overstating anything. I accept that I am an individual pleb in these matters with very limited agency to change things.
Very little agency is better than none at all.
I suspect that many on the Remain side will never get that agency because of a refusal to look reality in the eyes. Inexplicably, this is still mutable for you, still changeable. Over thirty three million people went out to vote, and your side lost by over a million people, as much as the friendlier, and lower number of four percent might soothe.
I didn’t down tools in 2015 when after eighteen years of trying, the Tories got a majority government. I don’t support them but I knew there were political processes open to me which could be used to get them out.
There are political processes open to you as well. You have every right to join or create a party that will seek to re-join the EU. You can stand on a general election with it, and if you win, go for it. Equally, you could support a party promising a referendum, and if they got in, and you won the referendum, absolutely fair play.
Do that, because how much do you think you’re achieving here trying to convince me by decrying me?
Beef thread again maybe chaps?
Alternate suggestion. Why not play nice?
@saintbletch and I, sporting some opposite views on this subject, can do so in the context of the posts written.
I’m not arsed about insults. They just don’t add much to the debate, and if anything, they’re glaring hallmarks of someone losing an argument.
That said, neither am I going to let complete bollocks reside on this forum without giving it a bit of a tickle, especially when it comes from the subset of folk that have never been to the pub.
Not wanting to pick on you but you are also happy wallowing in the assumed distopian future of post Brexit Britain!!.
As I’ve said elsewhere no one knows what the future is going to be but the reality is going to be somewhere between the 2 camps.
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Wow.
You’re like a little, white Nelson Mandela.
MOD EDIT: fixed quote.
Half Nelson.
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Fucking quote bastard
Ah, bollocks @Fatso. I can’t help but like the pub people more. Effort, init.
That said, fascinating comments on the referendum. I’m sure they’ll be decisive in any future poll.
With neither camp happy Bob?
To my mind that doesn’t bode well, but maybe it’ll all turn out ok and it was all a dream (a la Dallas) or I was just being overly pessimistic and the next 50 years will just fly by…
I’ll just leave this here…
What a fool.
You’d better hope they fly by, as we’ll probably still be trying to work out how we got into the position of being a place with “no country-specific commitments” in the WTO.
Would we have bent over far enough by then?
Pap: I don’t do insults just good honest debate…
AG: well I do insults : you really do love yourself and believe your own bullshit. I don’t think you lack self awareness, but you seem to wank yourself raw with little internet ‘victories’ - as said before, you read a lot but seem naive and narrow minded in the conclusions you draw from it … from over simplification of supply and demand to ignorance on trade surplus being somehow the only variable in economic growth… we may have a small deficit with the EU… but its still a market of over 200bn… we will eventually work something out to mutual benefit but the eventual trade will be smaller meaning shrinkage of our exports overall - less jobs and potentially recession - how many more poor do we need requiring food banks? This has been the Tory Euro sceptics plan all along - wait for an appropriate time when we are economically fucked post glabal crisis and then convince the poor it’s all the EU fault … then ensure hard brexit to make it worse to further entrench the anti-EU views… and you are happy with this undemocragic opportunistic power grab because you demand democracy by any means and at any cost…
You are comfortable not knowing what will happen but seem prepared to take the risk - sadly you seem willing to sacrifice the ones at greatest risk on the alter of your ‘principles’ - they are not principles , just blind faith in an out dated political doctrine…
Maybe I’m just naive and believe in the inherent goodness of people and that something will be sorted to eveyone’s mutual benefit.
I wish I could share your POV as its a nice one to have… but I just look at this that set this up and their rational for delivering this schism - things born out of such selfish drivers rarely turn out well…