That’s helpful, Fatstuff.
Here’s some tories-looking-stupid-in-hindsight porn for you.
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There is no doubt, whatsover, that the government spent 9m of tax payer money on its pro-Remain EU leaflet. It went out to every household in the country. It was in retrospect, a complete waste of money and at the time, was decried as state funded propaganda.
I think people might have been even more upset about it if they’d known, as we do now, that Cameron actually forbade the Civil Service from planning for a Leave outcome.
There is also no doubt, whatsoever, that a foreign billionaire is funnelling money into having that democratic result.
Finally, and for the sake of argument, let’s assume that both overspent. Let’s even go as far as confirm the “foreign power” paid for it part, again for the sake of your argument.
In the Leave corner, we’d had a foreign power presumably spending money to get us out of a foreign-dominated bloc. The Remain corner has foreign and domestic interests spending money to keep us in that foreign-dominated bloc.
If you could prove all of that to voters before the poll on the 23rd July 2016, which way do you’d think they’d jump?
I have seen very little evidence to support this on the posted evidence.
And around seven years of forum content suggesting the contrary.
I still dont understand as we never voted into a European Union but a Common Market for trade why this discussion is still going on.
IN 1972 the Government entered a trade agreement with the Common Market.
When given a choice in 2016 the Voters decided they did not want to be part of a European Union. Which governed there lives .
Or am I being to simplistic.
II think the reason this debate rages on is because voters made a choice without any factual understanding of the implications and impact Leaving would have on our lives vs staying in… campaigns form both sides were full of shit and when people are struggling, with food banks etc, telling them this is fault of EU and migration (not true), or that 365 mil extra could go to NHS (a lie) is appealing if you feel this will better your lot… reality is that we may all like to think it makes a huge difference where we are governed from and by whom, when reality is more about the impact of such government.
For most Remainers, we see all the flaws associated with the EU and its at time undemocratic challenges, but believe its a compromise we should make as the modern global economy and our place within it is best served as part of a broader collective… ultimately its our economic viability that enables national Government to determine how we fund services that directly effect us.
Personally, and perhaps more uniquely, I don know (most likely to my evolutionary biology background) I don’t see borders and nationalism as a something of any worth - they are all artificial created through a couple 2000 years of war and fighting over resources and people… on a planet that ins 4.5 billion years old - Do you think anyone will be worried about the EU in another 2000 years? So spending time worrying about sovereignty is just vanity… what we should be worried about is how within a global economy are we best placed to secure stability and growth and thus afford a decent standard of social provision. Given Even Gove said it could be 50 years before we ‘recover’ - how many poor and venerable will fucked in that time?
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@pap, I did try to explicitly remove the emotive he-said-she-said elements from the discussion so we could debate the specific issue, so didn’t really want a “your lot is just as bad” response.
If it helps us move on, I’ll acknowledge all the points you made about state-funded propaganda and I’ll even answer your question…
Would there have been a different result if the knowledge that a foreign state was interfering in the referendum?
Given what we now know about the targetted fake news ads and given that, and I made this point at the time, all of the passion and drive for this vote came from the Leave side, and given that there was the potential for apathy on the Remain side as the general assumption was that we’d remain, and given the shockingly poor levels of debate and made-up propaganda (on both sides), I don’t think the knowledge of a foreign state interfering in our election would have even made it in to the debate let alone change the result. So we’d probably still have voted Leave.
That covert meddling of a foreign power in our election wouldn’t have changed the result tells you how fucked that whole process was.
That you seem to be suggesting that if it wouldn’t have changed the result, it doesn’t matter, is depressing. (I’m sure you’ll correct any misinterpretation on my part)
So just as it looks like you’ve done with your reply from an entrenched position, at the time we’d stopped listening to debate and stopped checking facts and were instead deeply partisan in all our thoughts and deeds.
Ok, so given that I’ve conceded to your points my question in isolation stands.
Why are we not, as a nation, up in arms about the possibility that a foreign state might have tried to influence a referendum result that has thrown our country into chaos and created a schism (as we’ve proved on this thread) through our country?
Let’s deal with the People’s Vote being backed by Soros. I can see how that might give some people heartburn, but the difference here is a) he’s not a state and b) he has been completely transparent - giving interviews and defending his rationale. I actually quite like some of Soros’ views of the EU (he’s actually quite critical) but that’s a different discussion from the one I’m trying to have here.
Let’s check in our different positions on leaving the EU, if we can, and focus on the issue of the interference of a foreign state.
How do you feel about potential foreign interference?
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My bad… must have been a rushed reactionary response 
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I voted Leave, which should tell you how I feel about foreign interference.
I genuinely can’t believe this is even a talking point, particularly in the context it is being used in.
You want to use this information to reverse the poll right? To enshrine foreign interference in a huge amount of policy that has been siphoned away from the British voter.
Your beef appears to be that ephemeral foreign interference stopped us from permanent foreign interference.
Just to confirm, is this what you’re upset over?
Catching up on this thread, but with the summer you lot have been having, (up until yesterday) will you actually have any water with which to reconstitute your powdered eggs & milk?
And do you actually have enough plastic bottle manufacturing capacity? Will you be able to get your mineral water bottles from China with no trade deals?
Etc
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Silly Phil, that recipe doesn’t need water only condensed milk.
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I’ve been trying to think about real examples of how businesses will either thrive or suffer in a post-Brexit world.
This guy gives some very concrete examples of how his business will be impacted.
As I’m listening to him, I’m thinking “but surely the government will do something to make this all ok” or at least provide him with a strategy to limit the impact on his business.
And there is the problem.
As the government’s position is so vague and as that is only a negotiating position and as that will be altered based on negotiations and as that may deliver something we don’t really want, the government is not considering how it can help business like his to prepare for Brexit.
Going back in time, I was writing accountancy software around the time that the EU VAT laws changed. This meant that if any company did business in the EU, how they charged VAT and reported on it changed enormously. For small business this was a big deal.
But, the position was understood, the government of the day delivered common-sense documentation to business explaining what it would mean and how the changes would impact on them.
Companies like mine built the changes into our software and what could have been incredibly damaging for small to medium-sized businesses was actually only a blip.
This government needs to calm businesses and deliver practical advice for both types of outcome (soft/hard). The alternative will be that businesses that can will move to places of more certainty.
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No, @pap.
The vote happened and we can’t understand or quantify what the impact of foreign interference had, and I’ve acknowledged it probably wouldn’t have changed the result if we’d known, so the vote must stand.
No, @pap.
I’m focussing on the principle of foreign state interference in a referendum and the fact that our press, politicians and seemingly you seem to just accept it.
@pap, please review my contributions to our discussion.
You’ll hopefully see that I’m not trying to trip you up or get you to admit something that might make you look hypocritical.
I’ve acknowledged every major point you’ve made that had value - even if it didn’t advance my Remain credentials or argument.
That’s debate.
Can you do the same and answer the question?
How do you feel about potential foreign interference in the referendum?
It is an old argument but also the crux. Think back to the days of Blair and those treaties he agreed. Maastricht, Lisbon or whatever. “The People” never had that properly explained in advance but they and politicians were uneasy.
This isn’t just a recent disaster, it has been brewing a long time.
England wanted to go back to being a Nation of Shopkeepers, The EU integration empowered Globalisation, those shopkeepers went bust a long time ago, now those who benefited are going bust thanks to Amazon et al.
More worryingly, catching up 200+ posts, I find myself agreeing with both @pap AND @Map-Of-Tasmania.
A positive - aviation will collapse, so no disasters at Stansted for so many families next year. Everyone can stay in UK Airbnb and boost the economy eating powdered eggs for breakfast
Interesting news about Deutsche Bank today planning on moving the Euro clearing operations to Frankfurt.
They warned us this would start happening and so it is. A chap estimated that perhaps 10,000 jobs will go in the City come Brexit. What Deutsche Bank haven’t said is that they have already moved a whole load of jobs out, or are in the process of doing so. I have a personal friend who is on a massive salary in investments now faced with the option of moving/commuting to Frankfurt or taking a less well-paid job in the UK. She is even thinking of jacking it all in (she can afford to).
You might well say “boo hoo, poor bankers, good riddance to them” or something like that. The problem is they bring a fucking massive amount into the Treasury;s coffers in tax. If her job goes to Frankfurt, that’s a big lump of tax no longer being paid. On top of that, there are all the people she employs with her massive salary. She will no longer pay them anything.
And this is my worry. Businesses leaving the UK, small companies going out of business and we’re collectively a whole lot poorer.
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Well, first of all, I’d not be best pleased with anything that takes power from the hands of British voters, especially is that power ends up in a remote, unelected executive.
I have also railed consistently on the subject of foreign state interference in UK matters that have nothing to do with the EU whatsoever. In principle, the record illustrates that I am against foreign lobbying of any kind, particularly when that lobbying hurts the power of the voter in the UK.
That’ll cover the EU, our foreign policy in the Middle East, and a whole lot more.
Appreciate that you may not have the view that this is a reason for the referendum being overturned, but that is very much the way it is being played, which is why I weighed in with the EU referendum leaflet.
If the country and its press were that arsed about foreign interference in our electoral processes, it strikes me as a particularly odd time to get up in arms about it, a fairly cynical one, and makes me wonder about what kind of political sense the Remain camp has.
Prepared to put on the “ooh! foreign influence” hat on when it seems they can get headlines in the Indy and the Guardian, utterly fking clueless or careless about the practice in general, while EU negotiators are openly dictating our future or doom, depending on whether we get a deal or not.
So now that I’ve expanded on foreign influence, what’s your take?
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10000 jobs is a battle bus headline. It is meaningless.
Yes they are going but even IF UK PLC collapses to a feudal agrarian economy there will still be entrepreneurial opportunities (in 50 or so years).
Big business doesn’t do change very well, it is why big companies collapse and others rise.
An economic collapse a Sterling collapse, new tax rules could just as easily cause foreign companies to move to UK to take advantage? Google, Amazon, Apple. Could employ low cost support or R&D staff not involved in trading.
Not saying it will happen, I’m saying we have no idea about any of the changes about to come.
To give you my full views I’d have to have to bring in Remain arguments, and as I’ve disarmed us to get the debate this far, that doesn’t seem right.
In isolation, I think we need a means to protect us from this happening again.
I think we’ve got to draw a line between foreign states publicly taking a position; Obama, Trump, etc and those that have done so covertly.
Given that we can’t hope to influence Russia, or other foreign states that might covertly interfere, we’ve got to then look at the mechanism that they were apparently able to use to peddle fake news and propaganda - social media.
The argument that social media companies use that they are simply communications mediums and not publishers is flawed. They are the new state broadcasters, except that the state is now global.
They should be constrained by the same restrictions placed on domestic broadcasters, and whilst those restrictions still give us editorially biased news, they do largely keep un-sourced, unverified and untrue news out of our living rooms and off our phones.
I also feel that the full force of the law should be brought to bear on Aaron Banks’ arse if he’s found to have laundered another state’s money to pour it into a political movement.
It almost feels treasonous to do what he is accused of doing.
You honestly think the UK has never done this?
Ever?
By different means maybe but certainly manipulating media even recently?
#dodgydossiers #fakenews
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