I told you Cameron would fuck him up.
PM Boris Johnson’s personal life wouldn’t look good on a front page.
As it is Murdoch can sit on any detail and use it when it suits him.
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Originally posted by @pap
Another Remain claim rubbished?
In the first hint that European leaders may be willing to discuss changes to the EU’s existing freedom of movement rules as part of a new relationship with the UK, the French finance minister Michel Sapin has said everything will be on the table in the future talks with the UK, including freedom of movement.
His softer line contrasted with the tone emerging from European leaders at the summit, including French president François Hollande who stressed the UK could not expect to have access to the single market if it did not accept freedom of movement.
No, not really. Michel Sapin has said that everything will be on the table, and I’m sure that will be the case. So freedom of movement will be up for discussion - along the lines of “Freedom of movement we can change or dilute - as long as you’re not looking for full access to the single market.”
So yes, on the table. But not in a way that optimistic leavers think. As an addendum, I heard one of Merkel’s right-hand men on the radio this morning, and he couldn’t have been clearer. The single market has four fundamental principles of free movement,and free movement of people is one of those. I can’t see that they’ll budge on that.
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There are no “direct” results.
A lot of people are deciding that things are a direct result. You yourself are doing it.
Ironically, the one direct result we’re supposed to have, the invocation of Article 50, hasn’t happened.
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Originally posted by @Rallyboy
I told you Cameron would fuck him up.
PM Boris Johnson’s personal life wouldn’t look good on a front page.
As it is Murdoch can sit on any detail and use it when it suits him.
Michael Gove is the one who fucked him up. Worth remembering that Gove used to be chief whip, he will know all there is to know about Boris’s car crash of a private life. And of course before standing for Parliament Gove was the chief political writer for Murdoch’s Times. I believe his wife, the fragrant Sarah Vine, is still a columnist there. So it can be taken as read that Murdoch knows all there is to know as well. I have no doubt that if Cameron had come out for Leave, Johnson would have backed remain, which was always his position anyway until relatively recently. Cameron was always more of a euro sceptic than Boris. Can’t help feeling that Boris has missed a trick here though, given his alleged irresistable skills as a lothario he should have shagged the fragrant Sarah, that would have kept Gove in line!
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How can anyone believe that politics and business are not linked.
Politics is all about managing the country and with that the economy and the economy is based on all the businesses, therefore any political decision is directly linked to the economic ramifications.
What do you expect businesses to do erode their profits just to stay in the uk. If you got offered a pay rise to do the same job elsewhere you would take it, it’s the same in business if you can make more money doing the same somewhere else your going to do it.
So sorry if people do get made redundant it will be as a direct correlation to the people who voted out, and do expect a great deal of I told you so’s from the people who voted in.
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It’s not a defence, papster.
Not from where I’m standing.
Those that voted Leave, cannot distance themselves from the consequences.
All consequences were likely and unlikely in equal measure. The only thing approaching certainty was a Remain vote.
That the voting slip simply said Remain or Leave, meant that what followed was the unknown.
That the chair of the Leave campaign Giesla Stuart - a Labour MP, was making pronouncements of what would happen next should have rang alarm bells. She isn’t in power, and isn’t likely to be anytime soon.
Your Leave vote was the trigger to those companies to trim costs, limit investment or put staff on notice of relocation or redundancy.
This corporate behaviour was not something that was created following Brexit. It has always been this way.
It was always foreseeable. It was predicted.
You voted Leave knowing the likely corporate reaction and resultant consequences (even in the short-term - if you’re right about the duration of the uncertainty).
I truly respect anyone who voted Leave for principled reasons. It was the once-in-a-generation chance to make a change that many people needed ideologically. To them, this (short-term) pain was a price worth paying.
But to those people, I say fess-up and own your decision.
This shit was your doing. Nobody else’s.
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Originally posted by @saintbletch
Giesla Stuart
That’s the most promising anagram name I’ve seen in ages. Even at first glance you can easily see that Slag, Tits, Slut and Tart are all v.much on the table.
And on more serious point, I agree completely that any dire consequences of brexit are all pap’s fault, and no-one elses.
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Originally posted by @saintbletch
Originally posted by @pap
Originally posted by @Rallyboy
I suspect less people are worried about the future of Boris than are worried about the future of their job/savings/income/pension.
But good luck with your ongoing campaign to distance the Leave vote from what has happened as a direct result.
There are no “direct” results.
A lot of people are deciding that things are a direct result. You yourself are doing it.
Ironically, the one direct result we’re supposed to have, the invocation of Article 50, hasn’t happened.
It’s not a defence, papster.
Not from where I’m standing.
Problem is, going by that logic, Ex-Trader is a direct result of Brexit. Nothing else happened there.
Those that voted Leave, cannot distance themselves from the consequences.
We’re not, but neither are we responsible for decisions taken at board or government level. Are Leave responsible for Article 50 not being invoked, and the period of limbo we’ll have before it is?
No. These are all decisions which while linked to the vote, have been independently taken.
Cameron didn’t need to stay on. The chicken coup plotters didn’t need to choose now to launch their plan.
All consequences were likely and unlikely in equal measure. The only thing approaching certainty was a Remain vote.
That the voting slip simply said Remain or Leave, meant that what followed was the unknown.
Of course, which is why its madness to say something is a direct result of leaving.
What we have is an event and reactions. I took part in the event. I am not responsible for the reactions.
That the chair of the Leave campaign Giesla Stuart - a Labour MP, was making pronouncements of what would happen next should have rang alarm bells. She isn’t in power, and isn’t likely to be anytime soon.
And yet, people were making exactly the same claims about Farage and Johnson, that they’d be part of the post-vote settlement, the country to lurch to the right.
Your Leave vote was the trigger to those companies to trim costs, limit investment or put staff on notice of relocation or redundancy.
17m Leave votes were the trigger. I do not understand why people are trying to personalise this argument.
This corporate behaviour was not something that was created following Brexit. It has always been this way.
It was always foreseeable. It was predicted.
You voted Leave knowing the likely corporate reaction and resultant consequences (even in the short-term - if you’re right about the duration of the uncertainty).
I truly respect anyone who voted Leave for principled reasons. It was the once-in-a-generation chance to make a change that many people needed ideologically. To them, this (short-term) pain was a price worth paying.
But to those people, I say fess-up and own your decision.
This shit was your doing. Nobody else’s.
Probably the strongest disagreement we’ll ever have.
I own my leave vote and _my _decision.
The best you can say is that along with 17m others, I am collectively responsible for that decision. That’s over half the electorate.
As I said before, I don’t understand this personalised criticism. I don’t own Gove’s dirt book, or whatever he used to get Johnson to quit the race. Throughout the campaign, I said that there would be short term problems but with a better long term outlook.
FFS, how long is it before I get blamed for someone else punching an immigrant in the face?
That’s the road you’re heading down.
We’re not ungenerous pap. If you hold your hands up to any short term problems we experience, we are willing to credit you should any long-term gains arise. Or at least, give you one 17millionth of a percent credit.
So can you accept that you and your team members - a team made up of Boris, Farage, Pap + factions such as the passionate Euro-sceptics, the bigoted pensioners, the ill-informed, the total fuckwits, the mad racists etc, should take some responsibility for the damage being done?
Not personally, but as a big team effort?
Originally posted by @Stevebish
How can anyone believe that politics and business are not linked.
Politics is all about managing the country and with that the economy and the economy is based on all the businesses, therefore any political decision is directly linked to the economic ramifications.
What do you expect businesses to do erode their profits just to stay in the uk. If you got offered a pay rise to do the same job elsewhere you would take it, it’s the same in business if you can make more money doing the same somewhere else your going to do it.
So sorry if people do get made redundant it will be as a direct correlation to the people who voted out, and do expect a great deal of I told you so’s from the people who voted in.
No-one’s saying they’re not.
The links just aren’t direct.
You cannot tell me that immigrants are getting abused because of Brexit. The main reason they’re getting abused is because this country has stupid racist cunts in it.
Now you might say “ah, but pap, Brexit has enabled them”. I’d disagree again. Remember the “stupid” part.
Sticking to this example, should I really let the behaviour of the fucking stupid drive my own voting?
Now apply that to greedy business owners and corporates.
Originally posted by @Rallyboy
So can you accept that you and your team members - a team made up of Boris, Farage, Pap + factions such as the passionate Euro-sceptics, the bigoted pensioners, the ill-informed, the total fuckwits, the mad racists etc, should take some responsibility for the damage being done?
Not personally, but as a big team effort?
I think the History Books will show that Brexit was great & landmark decision by far-sighted political heroes, and ppl like Rallyboy are just a bunch of dumb flat-earthers. Stands to reason. History books is written by Winners.
We disagree papster
That’s fair enough.
I’ve looked again at my post and stand by it.
It’s black and white (don’t go there) for me.
It’s clear and unambiguous.
I ascribe responsibility.
There is no grey.
On that basis, I’ll not convince you and vice versa.
So I’ll unilaterally agree to disagree.
downvote for agree to disagree, fkn pussy
Originally posted by @Rallyboy
So can you accept that you and your team members - a team made up of Boris, Farage, Pap + factions such as the passionate Euro-sceptics, the bigoted pensioners, the ill-informed, the total fuckwits, the mad racists etc, should take some responsibility for the damage being done?
Not personally, but as a big team effort?
Teams normally work together in furtherance of an aim.
If I was a member of the Leave campaign, or any campaign, you may have a point. Even if I’d praised any of the characters you’d listed there, you’d have something.
This ain’t my first rodeo on the you is Farage bull. KRG tried it continuously during the run-up to the debate. I think my response throughout was that Farage was a dick. I haven’t changed my opinion of him.
I appreciate that people are concerned about everything going on. There’s no need to misrepresent, even if it is facile guilt by association.
Do me a favour though. Find me something, anything I’ve said that puts me in the same political camps as that esteemed company.
Actions speak louder than words and you voted Leave which, by it’s very nature, puts you firmly in their camp whether you like it or not.
Any Leave voters who say they didnt know that there would be damaging economic issues arising if the vote was Leave, are either lying or a total fuckwit.
Any Leave voters who say, yes, ok I heard the stories but I did not believe them. Instead I believed the Leave Campaign who said it would all be fine and not to worry. Ok, well some of the blame falls on the trio of Johnson, Gove and Farage but anyone duped by these claims (along with the others already backtracked) cant escape blame
Any Leave voters who say yes, I thought the economy might suffer but I have my own reasons for voting Leave which override this. I heard some on the radio, e.g some who run their own businesses and felt constrained by the EU. Fair enough.
Any Leave voters who say yes, I thought the economy might suffer but I dont care is a toal fuckwit who will no doubt complain loudly once prices for some imports go up or spending on local infrastructure is cut.
Finally any Leave voters who say the economic changes are nothing to do with me and its not a result of the vote, well I have only come across one so far, so cloud cuckoo land is not going to overflow just yet.
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is it definite the economy is fucked srs?
Originally posted by @Flahute
Actions speak louder than words and you voted Leave which, by it’s very nature, puts you firmly in their camp whether you like it or not.
That’s nonsense. It’s a binary decision and the tactic is just as piss-poor then as it was then.
I understand the way people are feeling. You’re gutted, and you want to lash out.
I’ve been there before myself after both general elections and a referendum.
There is a huge difference between moaning at someone who knowingly votes for a nasty manifesto policy and taking part in a referendum.
There was one policy being voted on here. “Do you wish to remain a member of the European Union?”
Everyone knew there would be consequences. No-one really knew what they’d be. About half the Remain arguments on the old thread are dead, or at least those that said Boris would be running everything.