Only 1/2?
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In the current climate I was being polite.
Thing is All racists are ignorant - the fact is their lack of education/or wrong education has left them with an ignorant and misguided view that their āraceā is somehow superior to others is simply the extreme end of the ignorance scale. The other end where folks are looking at pragmatic reasons for stopping foreigners coming over here, is only truly pragmatic if all the information is presented correctly.
There has been talk of āconcernsā over jobs, wages, resources. How many of those who express such concerns have looked at all the information and considerations? How many will have:
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recognised that our stretched resources, schools, hospitals, housing, is not stretched because of the immigrants, its stretched because of 40-50 years of underinvestmen by successive governments
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Read the many articles on how influx of cheap labour can drive productivity, competiveness and growth = more jobs and better wages (was one of the driving forces behind Germanyās second half of the Wirtshaftswunder)
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took time to review the real net immigration figures and compared to how many Brits currently live and work abroad - doing the same thing as those wanting to come here, seek a better life for themselves or their families?
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Read the Sunās blatent election campaign violation (IMHO) when it published a huge load of bollox on the ref day about Calais, and net migration figuresā¦ on ref day!
This ignorace is scary, because its the start of a slippery slope to worse feelings of intolernace - to distrust and fear, which leads to hateā¦ That might sound overly dramatatic, but people are not born racists or supremacistsā¦ Farage is merely a ārespectableā face that spreads that ignoranceā¦
As for the āBritish way of lifeā - well who says what a āBritish way of life is?ā - does that include a nice cup of tea? (from India and China), or maybe a curry and a beerā¦ or a Chips (potatoes from South America) - I could go on - culture and āway of life evolves naturally with time - how far back do they want to go? Middle ages, or maybe when Slavery wasā part of our way of life?
It would be easy to try and dismiss this as a joke, but defending immigration stance from the way of Lifeā perspective is ā¦ once again ignornace IMHO and for those that want time to stand still.
If we do try and create a quoto/points system, I find that comoditization of human beings based on OUR needs rather than their aspirations extremely sad. The success of migrants to this country should not be determined by us and our wants, but by their desires that leads to hard graft and contribution to our society and community. For me that is what being British always stood forā¦a sense of fair play. Closing the door is just not cricket.
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Originally posted by @BTripz
The Northern Island question
A good read.
I hadnāt considered half of that.
All fair point Gay but if I may
Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
- recognised that our stretched resources, schools, hospitals, housing, is not stretched because of the immigrants, its stretched because of 40-50 years of underinvestmen by successive governments
Agree that our infrastructure has been fucked for years but thereās no need to fuck it up even more by increasing the population by a Newcastle every year, give it time to breath and rest and get the Government to reinvest. If you have a dodgy stomach you donāt keep shovelling food into it
- took time to review the real net immigration figures and compared to how many Brits currently live and work abroad - doing the same thing as those wanting to come here, seek a better life for themselves or their families?
Net immigration last year was 333k, 630k people in (from EU and outside of the EU) and 297k out
| All Citizenships | British | Non-British | EU | Non-EU | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Immigration | 630,000 | 83,000 | 547,000 | 270,000 | 277,000 |
| Emigration | 297,000 | 123,000 | 174,000 | 85,000 | 89,000 |
| Net Migration | 333,000 | -39,000 | 373,000 | 184,000 | 188,000 |
If we do try and create a quoto/points system, I find that comoditization of human beings based on OUR needs rather than their aspirations extremely sad. The success of migrants to this country should not be determined by us and our wants, but by their desires that leads to hard graft and contribution to our society and community. For me that is what being British always stood forā¦a sense of fair play. Closing the door is just not cricket.
But we already do that for people outside of the EU based on EU legislation, so the EU ideology of free movement only applies to people in the EU, if youāre not in the EU then fuck you! During the campaign I mentioned about Indian doctors and how their numbers had dropped massively because EU legislation basically stopped British hospitals employing them.
Also a points based system would help get people in for the jobs that need people. Going back to your point 2 surely thereās no point in 100k plumbers coming in to the country to work if there are already a glut of plumbers!
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Maybe a couple of the oldies can answer this one.
When we originally voted to go into the EEC in 1975, it was 67 / 33 in favour, was it as divisive then as it is now. I appreciate that in '75 you didnt have social media to stoke up the fires, but I am interested in the general feeling between inners and outers
Can someone please tell me what Sadiq Khan is on, heās acting as if London is a member country of the UK not a large town spread across many counties!!
GA - you can say exactly the same thing about any country that runs a points system, or indeed, any country which runs an employment market.
People are, for a limited amount of time each day, commodities to be used by business. They get different rates for different skills. How different is that, really, from a points based system?
Countries with points based systems recruit like businesses. Recruitment is just happening on a larger scale, aimed at addressing key shortages in the national economy.
If you accept the concept of variable renumeration in the labour market, Iām not sure how you can moan about points based systems at the same time. Itās the same idea applied at different scales.
You lot are fucking living in LaLa land if you think there will be a points system for EU nationals of the current 28.
To get access to the single market in a EEA arrangement, as per the shouted about Norway model, the UK will have to accept the free movement of goods, services and people, just as they have. There is no way the EU will back down on that and those in power know damn well that without free access to the single market that there will a massive exodus of companies of all types.
What I fully expect to be offered is that any new member states nationals have no freedom of movement to the UK as a sop and that to be claimed as a great victory.
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Itās a victory of sortsā¦but not a great one for sure.
Originally posted by @pap
GA - you can say exactly the same thing about any country that runs a points system, or indeed, any country which runs an employment market.
People are, for a limited amount of time each day, commodities to be used by business. They get different rates for different skills. How different is that, really, from a points based system?
Countries with points based systems recruit like businesses. Recruitment is just happening on a larger scale, aimed at addressing key shortages in the national economy.
If you accept the concept of variable renumeration in the labour market, Iām not sure how you can moan about points based systems at the ame time. Itās the same idea applied at different scales.
Maybe itās more a philosophical argument but for me it should always be about opportunity. Through accident of birth we have been lucky to a chance of āimproving our worthā as a commodity by access to education. And for me this issue of opportunity is fundamental - precisely because of what you are saying - that business does treat us like thatā¦ But providing opportunity for human beings to improve their lot is to me a basic human rightā¦ The practical considerations may ultimately come into play- but, I believe we are further from those thresholds than thersome would have us believeā¦
Many in this country have sadly not made the most of the opportunities they have had - arguably there have been circumstances that have contributed - so some feel , threatened when they see foreigners taking advantage of what they consider theirsā¦ But is it?
borders are artificial, some less than 30 years old - our DNA will show us all how we are closer to each than just Bletch exchanging DNA with the Sailors in Hamburg, so I see it all for what it is - artificial boundaries retained for what they were always originally intended for - to protect the interests of the few with the most.
That might sound like commie shite, but for me I can rest in the knowledge that in 1000 years none of it will be the same
There was a good interview with an EU rep on the R4 today programme yesterday about this. Essentailly he said that if you want a Norway type system of access to the single market, you have to accept free movement of labour and you have to pay. How much was the question? Well, if the Norway per capita amount was used for the UK, it would equate to about the same as we were paying in before brexit, after rebates and grants, so about Ā£124m a day.
So, the favoured solution by some brexiters is to get pretty much the same deal we are on now, but with none of the added benefits and no influence around the table.
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As you say, there was no social media in those days and that makes a huge difference. But from memory I think the country was generally happy to finally get in (at the third attempt) and the vote was quite compelling, not as now.
At least no bastard will be saying we canāt have bendy cucumbers!
I really do get the feeling that it is not going to be clear cut. I donāt think for one minute that thatās it!
I dont have animosity towards anyone really. The real racists are to be pittied, as they will go through life with so much hate which ultimately wont give them much fulfilmentā¦ I dont bare voters who made a choice any animosity either. I do however have a loathing for a system that allows the media to support blatent misinformation and lies when folks are expected to decide over such an important issue. I think there has to be a better way - yes we hail democracy as the ultimate symbol of freedom, but it does fall flat on its arse when the issues are so complex, and this is exacerbated by calculated misinformation - our democratic rights are abused by those who have controlling interests in the result from both sidesā¦ but for me the worst is stil those who manipulate peoples fears and trigger our worst traits pushing tehir blatent xenophobia.
This exactly. I was at a conference in Norway last week. The only point at which I had my passport checked was on leaving the UK. Imagine how weird it is to walk off the plane in Trondheim and straight out into the concourse. No checks of any kind.
What it seems we will end up doing is keeping open borders so that we can have free trade. On top of that, we will have to implement EU legislation in most industries and a lot of social spheres as well. In addition, we will have to pay at least as much (if not more - no more rebate) for the privilege of participating. If we donāt do this, we will lose thousands and thousands of jobs as companies relocate.
So, we have given up having any say but nothing else will have changed.
What a crock of shit.
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See this is an interesting one - because on the surface its seem just fucking crazy shit that anyone would worry about the curve in the Cucumis sativus - so what could possibly lead the busy EU folks to come up with such stuff?
However, as I understand it, the cumcumber is no longer covered by āSpecific marketing Standardsā BUt remain under the General marketing standardsā¦ even a boring cunt like me refuses to go read them all.
I think we need to devote this thread to this considerations - I think the intention was a good one. to protect the consumer, so that they could expect a minimum product standard, and encourage the produce to improve quality. Most of the āstandardsā are quality related in terms of growing conditions, safety (I have heard cucumbers can be incredibly dangerous), labelling re origin and and when grown etc. Some where veg can become mishapen is ā¦well I can only think to protect consumers form veg that looks like genitals - everyones favourite comedy veg momentā¦
ā¦ but in reality is mostly because mishapen veg is often a sign of some plant disease
Any other theories?