You need to stop with the simplistic analogy… its making you look mis-informed… you can not equate ‘simple’ business revenue models with the macro economics of a nation… and BoT is not an indicator of economic health. We were after all the 5th richest nation on earth whilst members of the EU… Now if you were to discuss the unjust nature with which that wealth is spent then this would be a more rational question, but again that cant be solely laid at the door of the EU… indeed the crux of many a remainder argument is that without the ‘shackles’ of the EU regulations as described by the Brexit party’s latest fatted cow, that wealth will not only be generated by further unshackled exploitation of the worker, but also at the expense of the environment, quality and possibly H&S… with less potential for market growth…
We were fifth richest in 1973 as well -
Yup, and we didn’t have a balance of payments problem with our European partners at the time either.
We sold more to them than they sold to us. It was only really the fact that we maintained a surplus with the rest of the world that it did not wreck our economy more.
We still do very well with the rest of the world.
Haha - you could not make it up… well you can as above. So lets get this straight, you earlier stated:
‘‘It has not worked out too well for our economy’’
yet we were 5th richest before and remain 5th richest after we joined… ok… so you then wish to suggest we were 'rescued form near certain economic death, by being able to flog teh shit we produced in the 70s and 80s to countries outside the EU… because of their shackles as opposed to the poor quality of the products we made? And hey Presto, the EU has held us back?
If only those stupid ignorant Europeans had bought more of the Brilliant Austin Allegros, instead of sending us their shitty VWs, Citroens, Renaults, BMWs, Mercs, we could have fucking owned them and been kings of Europe…No wonder you know more than the former head of the WTO… fuck me you should be up there with John Nash and be awarded a Nobel prize for economics…
You seem to be seeing cause and effect, where there is coincidence… but then again if some obscure non-MSM inter web moron has suggested they are the same, I am sure you found it, can quote it and believe it…
Let’s not treat fifth richest status as a constant, or anything that says anything useful about this economy. This economy can still earn. With the number of working poor rising year on year, it is also clear that this economy is a lot less equal than the one we had in 1973, offering a much worse social contract than is on offer now.
Our membership of the European Union means we are locked into the neo-liberal reaction to the 1970s, particularly the unions taking their militancy to the point where Thatcher could take them out.
And yes, we were and are very influential in the European Union, but we have been a terrible fucking influence at times, not least in helping to enshrine Thatcherite principles, such as the market being king, and state aid being very small or outright illegal, and privatisation on a continental scale of concepts that have utterly failed here.
The economy isn’t working for a lot of people. It isn’t working for university students. It isn’t working for unskilled workers. It isn’t working for anyone trying to move into their first home. It isn’t working for the working class.
To perceive a world ranking as things being equal, in isolation of any supporting facts, especially when you live here, and have seen much of the build up, seems a greater simplification than anything I’ve ever managed on here.
Ok so now we are talking… the 5th richest etc is indeed a red herring, but you speak as if our economy has been on constant decline since 1973 and its all the fault of the EU… That is where I have to take major issue and its been a common theme. We have seen many fluctuations that have impacted on the people of this country and have been at the whims of both global economic vagaries and those typical of domestic economic policy. I am not so blinkered in my view as not to acknowledge that the EU will undoubtedly have played a part in this, but to believe brexit is pivotal to escaping this is IMHO simply wrong.
The current challenges are the result of the austerity of the last 10 years… and we can go round the houses as to how much impact EU policy had in that vs the much less regulated actions of US banking had (Regulations that Trump is also further dismantling… and has those arch dicks like Mogg, Johnson et al creaming themselves as they see a similar deregulated opportunity)
I am sure you may argue that we we need to be brave, and that merely selecting the lesser evil is no rational for preserving the status quo, and under other circumstances I might agree, but its not me or you who are at risk of getting fucked by this when Boris somehow leads the Tories to self preservation… but those very same disenfranchised in the food bank queues and their neighbours who voted for it. Was it really a risk worth taking given the drivers of this are the greed of Tories, as opposed to the principles you would wish to project on the 17.4?
I don’t have a crystal ball, but I am very concerned about what we are headed for, and I am very lucky to know it should not effect me the directly, maybe except a more costly shopping bill for more exotic veg and fruit, or a more expensive European holiday… as I said I am lucky, but how many others can say the same… I will ask you in 12 months time if you still think it was worth it, or maybe we should ask those in the foodbank queues?
I certainly wouldn’t attribute all the ills of the breakdown of the social contract to the European Union, but I think it has been a huge factor in many areas.
A pivotal part of the social contract is that yes, we’ll let you politicians run stuff, but if you run stuff badly, we’ll get other people to run stuff. That is a part of the social contract that is going to be restored to the voter on some very important issues. That is a prediction that will come true.
Also, there are food bank queues already. You’re writing as if these things don’t exist.
Walk down an English high street and see the people living in tents, and tell me how that happens in the fifth largest economy in the world, and how it isn’t a national scandal, especially when similar austerity is being imposed on a continental level.
Of course its a scandal, but i repeat, the cause is multifaceted and without some of the checks and balanced that re enshrined in EU regulations, we risk a shit heap of shite
PS… In no way have I acted like the food bank dont exist… go back and read my posts, but its the risk of being this expand as our economy shrinks that concerns me…
The problem is that you won’t attribute any of these problems to the European Union at all. I think many of its policies which would probably have worked in a Western European context, went disastrously wrong after much poorer countries to accede to the EU.
I also know that the UK was a very popular destination. I once supported Andy Burnham’s idea of the EU giving us an extra whack on account of our popularity. I honestly think that would have solved many of the issues, but we remained as net contributors.
You have repeatedly dismissed the EU as a factor in wage pressure, when all indications, including unskilled wage rises, are that supply and demand still applies, as it has done for time immemorial.
I think this point pretty inarguable, yet you continue to simultaneously speak up for the poor, and refer to this shit-show as “our economy”. You may feel that way, but its not their economy. It’s an economy for the so-called service industries, one that has brutalised the poor, either through debt or regressive tax.
Another hard truth is that it hasn’t been their economy since 1973.
You’re right that the UK is wildly unequal considering how rich it is, but I can’t see how EU membership directly relates to that when 4 out of the 5 most equal countries in the world are EU member states. Population size relative to wealth seems to be a bigger factor.
…and Piers Morgan levels of cunt.
That’s fairly remarkable in and of itself. Both the major parties did. Cameron came back from Brussels with his tiny bag of reform. Corbyn campaigned on a platform of remain and reform. Low wages directly effect how equal things are, being as they are, one end of the scale. Are you really saying you can’t see how net migration cannot create wage pressure, or the lowest period of wage growth in 150 years?
Shit, both sides of the debate saw that.
I do need to respond because you are again mis-representing my views, wither through intention or by making assumptions or removing context… so heres goes…
Wrong. All my posts for the last 3 years have acknowledged that the EU is far form perfect, it has many problems and issues as any large institution. My point has always been working from the inside to improve it would be far better than never really be engaged and pissing in. The problems we have just discussed/debated /argued/ about the poor being disenfranchised are obviously impacted by its policy, but IMHO, without it we would be holden to much worse.
How can you fail to acknowledge that the quality and productivity in the UK was not on the decline since the post war years? Or the austerity impact of the last global financial crisis?
We used to have a huge industrial might, but post war, maybe due to excessive rationing or whatever, we became a nation who wanted ‘cheap’ rather than quality - management puts pressure on wages and, unions respond and we entered a 40 year period characterised by industrial unrest and lack of investment in product design and quality… meanwhile our European ‘allies’ they focussed on quality, value not price, and brands became aspirational - less ‘ill have it now cheaper’, more, i’ll wait to get something better.
In France they heavily subsidised until later EU legislation limited this, but they had invested early in infrastructure and support, whilst we were reducing it significantly.
So yes EEC membership did contribute to the economic challenges, but in a different way to what you suggest… less about being a driver, more a facilitator as the common market meant greater ease of entry for better quality Goods manufactured and produced elsewhere… this, we as consumers wanted… But we still wanted cheaper as well, which is why we lost our high streets and local markets (significantly still common place in Europe) to supermarket chains… or how else could Austin flog early 1970s technology in a 'Metro as late as the mid 80s?
If we had continued to produce quality goods for which there was demand in Europe, then the EEC and EU would have been the perfect vehicle for our goods, not just our services.
There is some truth in this, BUT, that is the purpose of the EU, to bring together this group of nations under common purpose - if it was always just a boys club for the rich, why risk it bringing your poor neighbour? The idea is that overtime these nations become more aligned economically, each contributing… its still a long way off, but that is the model.
Yes, because of the language. There are other countries that would pay more and welcome these workers, but English is often the first foreign language they learned at school. Of course there might be a good argument that allows you to be compensated per capita for migrant workers taken, but is that really something we would ever have had a chance of changing when we have never been fully engaged and ready take a big rebate?
There is also the argument that the numbers taking these low skilled and low wage jobs are not actually as high as the Daily Mail and Sun liked to suggest… and certainly they were not the ‘drain on our services and resources’ - most were in fact net contributors as younger healthier adults paying tax and NI into the system…
I don’t want to go over this again, because it requires a better economic brain than mine to maybe articulate that whilst supply and demand does indeed impact to some extent, it is not the only factor by a long way… and we have seen wages in the low skilled sector rise as expected… but its not about sudden increases, but about sustainable increases which requires these businesses to grow… the macro picture is that many of these low skilled jobs are the first to disappear as an economy shrinks which drives down wages further - the supply and demand angle only applies long term to a growing sector…
See this is where you were into philosophy with speak of ‘our’ or their’ and its really not helpful - despite my misgivings, its the Left that has shouted more about the divisions than the right because it helps their cause. We have ONE economy in this country, its health governed by and large not only by our own productivity but a global macro economy. Its a system that IS always going to produce have and have nots - and its ingrained in human nature and culture. its is fundamentally WRONG, but those who believe they can remove it are naive. What we can try and do is alter the balance - slowly evolve the thinking and put in place regulation and legislation to support this… yet we are now headed with folks like Trump and Boris towards the opposite, the removal of checks and balances in favour of greater ‘freedoms’ to line big industrial pockets… I fail to see how this will support a return to a ‘workers’ economy…
TL;DR.
Keep it a bit punchier, Map. Or get an editor.
So we now have Boris Johnson negotiating our exit from the EU. What do we think of this Sotonians? I would be willing to bet on him fucking something up along the line, and more importantly what is the correct pronunciation of ‘negotiate’? TM seemed to prefer ‘ne-go-sea-eight’ which used to really grate on me for some reason, will BoZo be more of ‘ne-go-she-ate’ type of guy? What exciting times ahead we have to look forward to 
Tbf he is starting from a low base
If he gets anything else, that will be some sort of result
yeah yeah but is it ‘ne-go-sea-eight’ or ‘ne-go-she-ate’?*
*maybe one of the mods who isn’t very busy and likes doing IT stuff could start on poll on this very important matter, I have already done a poll this year and it’s very draining.
No-go-shite
ooh a 3rd option, I like it
With all the practice he’s had, I’d put my money on him doing the line in one effortless go.
After he’s done it, he’ll fuck everything up(again).