Originally posted by @Goatboy
Originally posted by @MrTrampoline
Got a girlfriend of about 18 months. I’m rather fond of her. Don’t know if I’d marry her but I like her enough for ‘have to leave gf’ to go in the ‘Cons’ column of moving abroad!
Has she got a good job?
Hardly likely if she’s only 18 months.
I thought it was very brave of Mr T to confess on here tbh.
Originally posted by @Goatboy
Originally posted by @MrTrampoline
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
Bollocks to the EU, its a sinking ship, if I was single and 26 I would be in Central Otago in a week.
Got a girlfriend of about 18 months. I’m rather fond of her. Don’t know if I’d marry her but I like her enough for ‘have to leave gf’ to go in the ‘Cons’ column of moving abroad!
Has she got a good job?
She’s trying to get into Film and TV editing. We met when she was in London working as a runner earning a minescule wage, getting up at 5 in the morning and working Saturdays etc. She’s moved back home with her parents as well I’m afraid - so similar position.
Originally posted by @Goatboy
Originally posted by @MrTrampoline
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
Bollocks to the EU, its a sinking ship, if I was single and 26 I would be in Central Otago in a week.
Got a girlfriend of about 18 months. I’m rather fond of her. Don’t know if I’d marry her but I like her enough for ‘have to leave gf’ to go in the ‘Cons’ column of moving abroad!
Has she got a good job?
She’s trying to get into Film and TV editing. We met when she was in London working as a runner earning a minescule wage, getting up at 5 in the morning and working Saturdays etc. She’s moved back home with her parents as well I’m afraid - so similar position.
Haven’t caught up with this thread so apologies if I’m OT, but this from James O’Brien…
@mrjamesob: Few things sum up the post-factual political climate better than all the racists arguing that racism isn’t really on the rise.
“Well you know what? Your posts sound like a carictature of an immature schoolboy pissed off that he is not earning enough and life is hard… well wake up and smell the coffee, there are people out there who have families to support on less than you earn… the rights and wrongs of it politically are another debate, but this situation has been part of life since long before the EU…”
Sorry m’lord. I’ll continue with my oats and porridge and be glad of it.
“‘The third point’ has not been debunked, its been contested - I suggest you look up the difference because there are plenty of economists will take on that challenge… In addition, the company I work for has seen major pay rises as we have grown for the reasons I have stated in that rapid growth from 18000 to 34000 in 3 years has seen demand for certain skills increase beyond normal supply. In our case that growth was not driven by cheaper labour, but the principle remains.”
Yes it has. You spoke in economic vagueries and hypotheticals which dodged the responsibility of providing a real-world example and didn’t expect to be called out on it. The logical extent of what you’re saying is that increased competition for jobs actually increases the wages of the low-skilled because companies expand beyond their means with no ability to scale down and/or make more money with which they increase the salaries of their low-paid workers despite having no incentive to do so.
“Re Courses abroad, you asked for reasons why staying in he EU was good , I responded with 3 that might be appealing to young people, but you seem hell bent on making this just about you… Brexit has potentially closed the door on free university education for those who would like to experience it… your choice of degree was yours and you chose to do one you ‘enjoyed’ good for you, but did you expect it would lead to a firm and strong career path? Its fine doing what you enjoy, most people on the fucking planet would love to do what they enjoy, but cant… not if you want to earn enough for reasonable standard of living…”
No I did not. I gave a polite account about how the EU doesn’t benefit me personally and that therefore I was economically incentivised to vote Leave. “Good” is an entirely subjective term. Its “good” to remain in the EU if you’re the CEO of a company reliant on a large low-skilled labour pool like Deliveroo or a property owner. That doesn’t mean its in my interest.
Your rhetoric of “did you expect your degree to lead to a strong career path?” essentially translates as “this is all your fault so put up and shut up”. And besides which, I was advised by parents, career advisers and teachers to do a subject I enjoyed.
“Yep, those pesky foreigners who all learned English to help them get work and have better prospects - how nasty they are. Again you keep coming back to what you consider are your limitations”
This is just a blatant bit of defamatory nastiness that you’ve persisted with throughout the thread. You’re straw-manning me as ‘blaming’ foreigners when I’ve specifically gone out of my way to disavow doing anything of the sort. You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.
“Philiosophy degree, no second language, dont want to work abroad, dont want to go and get more education… that says more about you than anything else.”
Let me get this straight; I’m supposed to be grateful for the fact that the EU gives me the opportunity to move away from my friends, family, girlfriend etc, learn a new language and essentially fuck off out of the country to somewhere better.
“You say later you are applying to PWC - a company not too disimmilar in approach to the one I work for - the selection process is long and tough because they look for the best, and if you are getting frustrated with that, you wont like the annual cull of an up-or-out policy - how the pyramid works and makes room for new recruits at the bottom rung…”
Your point being that competition is fierce? Which is what I’ve said all along?
“I am not a rich man. I was the first in my family to be able to go university, my dad having joined the army at 17 - normal ‘working class’ lad… When I was 26, 20 years ago, I earned around 9k and lived in a shitty damp and cold bedsit in East Ham. My clothes would go mouldy in winter and after paying rent and the tube fair to work was left with about £150 a month for food, clothes, everything else. But things get better as you get promoted and move jobs… that is normal.”
“That final sentence doesn’t half reveal the extent to which you feel career progression is a complete inevitabilty and something to be taken for granted. Yet on the other side of the coin, you seem to be scolding me for even aspiring to something moderately better than what I have now.”
“You make yourself more attractive to employers as you gain more experience. Its taken me 20 years before I could call things comfortable and afford a decent holiday…20 years and I am one of the lucky ones, many more than work 40 years and never get anywhere near comfortable. For most, life is a struggle financially.”
So the vote to leave proved.
“It has always been like that, and in/out of the EU is unlikely to have any impact on the working man - But at PWC, you will still be competing against those from EU business schools not jsut those from the UK, and Brexit wont chnage that… Brexit will maybe deny other young people looking to better themselves the chance to work here and reduce the competition a little, but if you believ that will drive up pay, you will be dissapointed. Al you have done is deny others the very thing you feel is your right simply because of the lottery of where they were born.”
I never denied it was a selfish vote. All that I’ve done in this thread is (not even argue) but simply explain why it was in my interest to vote to leave.
Lloyds (and other banks for that matter) downsizing their staff has been on the cards for years - they’re just now using it as a justification to do it. Fuck all to do with Brexit.
66% of Leave voters were happy with the Farage Nazi poster?.. 
I have to say Mr Trampoline that it seems that what your experiencing is something that I like to call ‘life’.
I’m 6 years older than you, and started work in 2006 at Skandia as a Junior Tester on £17k. It had nothing to do with my degree, but I thought I would go for any job to tide me over. I lived with my parents for 18 months as I couldn’t afford to move out with my mates. After 1 year, and a promotion where I was on the dizzy heights of £20k, I moved out into Southampton with 4 mates. We moved to St Mary’s as that was all we could afford, in the road opposite Tesco’s (Craven street). Not the greatest area I have to say, lots of ‘issues’ and not much money, but hey, that’s life. After moving in with the missus and living with her for 18 months, I applied for and got a Junior Business Analyst job in London, starting on £28k. This was 2011, so 5 years after I entered the workforce. I had to live outside London as it was ridiculous to think I could live a comfortable life in London, so I didn’t. Within 3 years I was on £58k, through promotions and new jobs, and then I went into contracting.
It may seem difficult at the moment, but as soon as you start getting promotions and then start moving jobs every 2 years you will see a substantial uptick in wages - and you will. However, to blame your financial woes on immigrants pushing the wages down - especially in your industry, is just not right.
You need to grow up a bit if you want to be successful… and stop sounding like an angry teenager, because it makes you miss the point entirely… (if that sounds partronizing, its meant to)
Its has not been debunked. You have now introduced ‘low killed’ into teh equation - when it shoudl have bene clear all along that the premise isall about companies who need skilled people who expand - they can train immigrants for sure and do so, but Skilled is mentionedin all my posts,which you ahve chosen to ignore - and yes, immigration of cheap labour that is used to expand industry leads to increased wages… go read up on it.
My ‘Rhetoric’ with respect to your chosen degree, I have never said its ‘your fault’ and NO my suggestion that the degree choice would not lead to a meteoric career path is not being critical of your choice, but is used to question why you considered it should grant you more than 21K at aged 26… Its an important and subtle difference.
Get over yourself - you stated that you were at a disadvantage to foreigners because tehy could come here as they spoke the language, whereas you did not speka a second language so could ont go work abroad - My point was a simple one, its not the fault of the foreigners that you are at a disadvantage… I humbly suggest its not. As you have stated previously that yo voted brexit for selfish reasons and oneof these wa sthe hop that les competition would drive up wages, the inference is that you would prefer the law to prevent competition form those that have advanatges over you? NO? so there is nothing wrong or inaccurate with my statement …
Yes you should be grateful for opprtunities afforded to you. Just because your situation and choices means they do not appeal to you, you dismiss them as of any value, when for others (to be potentially more restricted due to brexit) they represent a real chnace to expand tehir horizon and gain unique experiences that make them more attractive to employers…
The competition point which you have missed agin is that this will NOT change as a result of Brexit - which you seem to suggest was one of the reasons for your choice.
‘‘That final sentence doesn’t half reveal the extent to which you feel career progression is a complete inevitabilty and something to be taken for granted. Yet on the other side of the coin, you seem to be scolding me for even aspiring to something moderately better than what I have now’’ - this is a clasiic - My point made it very clear withoin the context of the whole post that career progression is anything but - its built on hard fucking graft and a willingness to compromise on some selfish dream… I have never ‘scolded you for aspiration’ I have 'scolded you for expecting it to come easy as if its a devine right. My example wa sto show you its not some new phenomenon, its been like taht for years and EU has fuck all to do with it. Serendipity will play a much bigger role in any career success you have than being within the EU or not… as will your application and graft. You naively think that your chances will increase with UK outside of the EU? After 20 years working for international companies, I would disagree.
7.the vite the leave only proved one thing, that you tell some people that immigration is the cause of all their problems aenogh times, they will believe it…sad but true.
I think he is blaming it on the EU not on the individual, remainers never seem to get this into their head.
Its the EU, not Europe, not people but that institution.
I’m trying to highlight how pathetic his aspirations are. He seems to be suggesting that it is crazy for him to expect a salary higher than the national average. That’s only true if you consider the way wealth is currently distributed to be reasonable. However, that is plainly not the case.
wealth is disproportionately distributed amongst the classes.
wealth is disproportionately distributed amongst the working class according to age.
He has two sets of enemies, the wealthy elite outside of his class but also the aged members of his own class, sadly, the mums, dads and grandparents.
For his generation the system is irredeemably fucked and a political solution is not an option. His only option is to take what is his right by force.
Originally posted by @MrTrampoline
Originally posted by @Fatso
Before the days of the EU all people with Philosophy degrees were well paid in their field. The problem we have now is cheap Eastern European philosophers coming over here taking our jobs and driving the wages down.
You still can’t come up with a single good reason for someone in my position to have voted to remain in the EU can you?
People are worse off than you, and there is a risk that this situation will only deteriorate following the Leave vote?
See below for caveat, explanations and reasons why this is still unlikely to change your mind.
Originally posted by @MrTrampoline
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
Mr Trampoline,
I am enjoying your posts, Surplus product I believe its called.
Its interesting. ChoulaKid seems to think that despite the fact that I’m struggling, the onus was on me to vote self-sacrificiallly for someone else’s benefit.
Apparently I’ve got quite a nerve hoping to earn a salary that’s just enough to live outside of my old folks’ house when I did a Philosophy degree (on the advice of both parents and teachers by the way, who in early 2008 recommended I study what I’d enjoy).
On the other side of the coin I’m being given a rather inspiring but still somewhat curious pep talk by SWDP telling me that I’m pathetic for not aspiring to more than a salary that’s above the national average.
Talk about mixed messages!
Tramp’ loving your posts on here. Please keep it up.
Disagree with most of what you’ve written, because whilst I can’t fault your logic, I’ve got a different perspective.
I find it totally refreshing that you’ve a) talked about, and justified (to yourself) your reasons for voting leave and b) I also find it refreshing that you are taking responsibility post-Brexit if things go “tit’s up”.
I can’t help but respect your honesty and position.
But here’s the problem I have with what you’ve done, it’s selfish. I should point out that in saying this I’m not expecting you to change your stance or worldview, and I understand your position. Who couldn’t?
After all, you’ve spent quite some time being you and the couple of minutes it will take you to read these thoughts generated by being me, will probably just be time you won’t get back.
But here goes, and none of this is likely to make any sense unless you are actually prepared to do the thing I’ve emboldened in the quoted post above - vote against personal gain for the good of others.
BTW, before I proceed, I was surprised that some of the left-of-centre posters on here (including the Big boss) upvoted your post. I guess it was for the thrust of your opinion or the way you articulated it, and not for your denouncement of socialist principle.
But here’s the thing, Tramp’.
You aren’t struggling.
Sorry to break it to you.
You might feel like it, but you are so fucking far away from struggling that you are living in relative luxury - and I can say that without actually knowing anything more about your circumstances. You’re in work, with access to a computer and education enough to wonderfully articulate your views.
There is a stratum of our society that truly is struggling to do the things that would give Maslow sleepless nights - things like keeping a roof over its head, clothing itself and feeding its children.
The people in this strata are the ones that have borne the brunt of our society’s introspection when it went looking for scapegoats after the bankers fucked the economy.
It will be the people in this strata that will again feel the pain if our economic situation worsens.
Your vote to Leave the EU, as I know you recognise, has risked worsening our economic situation - which risks fucking the less-well-off further up the arse.
That’s why I voted in a different way to you, but as I said, you haven’t walked in my shoes.
Ah a revolution, I don’t hate the elites as I know what they are, its the sharp elbowed middle classes that I despise and I include myself in that description (by marriage), the house price talking, charity donating self righteous shower of bastards we have become, comfortably numb and happy to see our fellow man 1 mile down the road live in squalor whilst we get a 3rd sky box in the spare room. You’re right its a shitshow all around.
“You need to grow up a bit if you want to be successful… and stop sounding like an angry teenager, because it makes you miss the point entirely… (if that sounds partronizing, its meant to)”
I daresay.
Easy to rude on the internet innit? Does it make you feel like a big man?
“Its has not been debunked. You have now introduced ‘low killed’ into teh equation - when it shoudl have bene clear all along that the premise isall about companies who need skilled people who expand - they can train immigrants for sure and do so, but Skilled is mentionedin all my posts,which you ahve chosen to ignore - and yes, immigration of cheap labour that is used to expand industry leads to increased wages… go read up on it.”
Yes it has. Once again you’re reverting to vagueries and hypotheticals to try and move the conversation away from real-world examples. The job where I was earning £17k was full of graduates from Russell Group universities. There were Nigerians, Colombians, Brazilians, Mexicans, a tonne of Greeks and Italians and a few French with a tonne of degrees. Supply and demand applies to everyone regardless of skill level. If supply outstrips the demand of the labour market then the employer does not have to increase wages to attract what he needs.
“My ‘Rhetoric’ with respect to your chosen degree, I have never said its ‘your fault’ and NO my suggestion that the degree choice would not lead to a meteoric career path is not being critical of your choice, but is used to question why you considered it should grant you more than 21K at aged 26… Its an important and subtle difference”
Seriously? You don’t think that I’m doing badly or ought to aspire to more?
“Get over yourself - you stated that you were at a disadvantage to foreigners because tehy could come here as they spoke the language, whereas you did not speka a second language so could ont go work abroad - My point was a simple one, its not the fault of the foreigners that you are at a disadvantage… I humbly suggest its not. As you have stated previously that yo voted brexit for selfish reasons and oneof these wa sthe hop that les competition would drive up wages, the inference is that you would prefer the law to prevent competition form those that have advanatges over you? NO? so there is nothing wrong or inaccurate with my statement”
I’d much rather be in a situation where I didn’t have to, but in a scenario where competition is so fierce I need to take every advantage I can, then its blatantly obvious that my best option, given the choice of ‘Remain’ or ‘Leave’ was the latter.
“Yes you should be grateful for opprtunities afforded to you. Just because your situation and choices means they do not appeal to you, you dismiss them as of any value, when for others (to be potentially more restricted due to brexit) they represent a real chnace to expand tehir horizon and gain unique experiences that make them more attractive to employers…”
Again. We’re back to the vagueries and hand-waving. “Oh…well…some people can work abroad and that might benefit their employment chances to some employers and…something…something”.
I can only speak for myself. I personally see no advantage or reason that the EU benefits me personally. So surprisingly enough, I voted against it. Simple.
“The competition point which you have missed agin is that this will NOT change as a result of Brexit - which you seem to suggest was one of the reasons for your choice.”
Sure, I said from the word go that it might not work out. The question is ‘what have I got to lose’?
“‘That final sentence doesn’t half reveal the extent to which you feel career progression is a complete inevitabilty and something to be taken for granted. Yet on the other side of the coin, you seem to be scolding me for even aspiring to something moderately better than what I have now’’ - this is a clasiic - My point made it very clear withoin the context of the whole post that career progression is anything but - its built on hard fucking graft and a willingness to compromise on some selfish dream… I have never ‘scolded you for aspiration’ I have 'scolded you for expecting it to come easy as if its a devine right. My example wa sto show you its not some new phenomenon, its been like taht for years and EU has fuck all to do with it. Serendipity will play a much bigger role in any career success you have than being within the EU or not… as will your application and graft. You naively think that your chances will increase with UK outside of the EU? After 20 years working for international companies, I would disagree.”
I am grafting thank you sir - but given that jobs nowadays require a phone interview, assessment centre and partner interview, I think most of my success will depend on how I can take days off and pull sickies without arousing suspicion from my current employer - given that almost every job application will require 3 days of absence just to attempt to get it.
the vite the leave only proved one thing, that you tell some people that immigration is the cause of all their problems aenogh times, they will believe it…sad but true.
Keep telling yourself that.
I still haven’t heard one way in which EU membership benefits me. I’m happy with the gamble.
No, they *think* it’s irredeemably fucked because they can’t get something for nothing. Big difference.
Right, now this is a post that has my utmost respect.
I’m not that badly off.
Admittedly voting to remain in the EU would have been a vote against my own interests.
But I morally ought to have made that self-sacrifice.
That’s a fair and consistent argument and point of view. One I do disagree with, naturall, but nonetheless fair and consistent.
I heard MrT was offered high-paid work overseas, but flatly refused to get on the plane.
It must be quite funny being an upper-middle class lefty.
The people who need to be taxed to the rafters are always the people just one rung above you on the ladder.
The people who’s concerns ought to be listened to and taken into consideration are always the people just one rung below the people who are actually talking about their issues.
No self-sacrifice to be made by you personally.
No help granted to those a few rungs below.
Easy game.
