Another tragic story

Then what is your point? If its a respect to women thing, then there is a separate thread and it doesn’t have anything to do with the sad murder of the poor girl above.

If it’s about rape and murder, please don’t try to dilute the issue with respect and let’s try to deal with what you asked:

“Men harass, rape and kill women. Where and how do you start to deal with it? A murderer or rapist is unlikely to modify his behaviour because of a few public awareness broadcasts. This is something deep in the psyche of some individuals. How do you deal with that?”

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A mainly sensible thread.

Someone mentioned Domestic abuse. If you advocate education as a cure, it is hard if that child comes from an abusive environment, it can be an ever perpetuating circle.

And no I have no idea what the answer is, only to listen to experts and try to be part of a solution not a problem.

But my fear is so many of the Women posting on Twitter today are getting abusive trolling.

Maybe starting there?

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This is very moving.

Not going to comment

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A difficult read but a lot of dedication has gone into publishing this work and highlights the severity of the problem.

I think even more work needs to be done to counter domestic violence, with the majority of women being killed by men known to them (and just for clarity I’m not suggesting women killed in public by strangers is any less serious). I wonder if the arrested officer was known to Sarah, but having said that until all the facts come out probably best not to speculate.

Sadly I think until we progress onto our next stage of evolution (e.g. beyond the aggressive/territorial/sexual instincts) then this will continue way beyond my lifetime.

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So some of the comments on here I’ve found problematic as a woman. There is an old thread somewhere that I gave up on trying to put across what it’s like to be a woman at times. I’d like to say this is my perspective and quite a lot of other women’s experience but we are not all the same and others will disagree.

  • “maybe we need to be saying never walk home alone, always take a taxi if you can’t find someone to walk home with you?”

We should be allowed to go wherever we want without fear. Ask someone to walk with you? Some male friends have assaulted their female friends. Taxi – predominately male drivers. We worry and will often text people the cab number plate, some women prefer Uber as they can send the link for the journey to someone. Since moving to London I have often curtailed a night out to get home before it’s too late because I don’t feel safe.

  • “Wolf whistles and comments aren’t the issue, rape and murder is the issue.”

They are actually an issue. It is just in the spectrum of the attitude to women. Bit of harmless fun? No, it makes us feel scared. It makes us not want to walk by that group of men. I’ve had comments made at me and called a lesbian when I didn’t like the disgusting comments and didn’t run into the arms of the man saying them. Silly me. That was broad daylight but on a street on our own.

  • “walking at night, on your own, with earphones on so you can’t hear others approaching, in Clapham, is risky. Get an Uber!”

Sad to see this from another woman but that is pretty much what we are told all the time. I’ve covered the Uber/taxi issue above. I’ve never got an Uber/Bolt etc on my own. I don’t often feel safe on my own in a registered taxi. But I do because I want to have a life. In Peru they deregulated taxi’s years ago. When I was living out there I never took a taxi because anyone could just stick a taxi sign in their window and there you go. I found the buses slightly safer. I’ve also been sexually harassed on buses and trains. I’ve also had my bottom smacked just walking home in Southampton.

  • “They have become far more adventurous which is part of the problem I feel.”

Wowser! Not sure if that’s how it was meant to come across. Thank god we are allowed to have freedom and be more adventurous and not need a chaperone. I’ve had a great time being adventurous. I am glad I live in this era as we have come along way but we still have a long way to go.

  • “Schooling should stress the importance of more than the way to have sex.
    They should show how and why girls especially need more protection. Emphasis on safety needs to be taught early and at length.”
    There is no need to teach us safety. What needs to be taught is healthy relationships. Some have mentioned the easy access to hard core pornography which is skewing young people minds as to what sex is. That needs to be address. Consent also needs to be covered. By all means the mechanics of what happens. We need to also address the issue of domestic violence being witnessed by kids which also normalises violence in relationships. I see referrals for teenagers already in abusive relationships. Where does that come from? We need to show young people what are healthy relationships. If they go ‘oh that’s not what’s going on at home’ they should be able to speak to someone about it and help provided to the family to hopefully make a change. Becoming desensitised to violence isn’t a good thing.

Nature v Nurture – it is mostly nurture. Most people are not born ‘evil’. But that’s probably another debate.

Men having a curfew of 6pm. Kneejerk reaction? However, women are essentially being told to do just that when we are the ones at risk. Of course I do not agree with either having a curfew.

Solutions:
I’d say Education is the main way of addressing things. Proper sex and relationship education. Teaching children about what isn’t good in a relationship, what is, consent, letting them know they can speak to someone. Empathy! Because I think that is lacking for some.

Misogyny needs addressing asap. It is a problem. Have you seen the number of women on twitter telling their tales. I have several and they probably start from about age 8ish and go on to the other night when walking in the park with a friend where we were leered at. 37 years. As women get older we do get a bit more ignored so hopefully the next 37 will have less comments however, if nothing changes I will still be worried when I am out at night and how I am getting home. The hate towards women online is incredibly worrying.

Men – you do need to be a bit more reflective about your behaviour. It is fine to admit maybe you did something that someone may have found uncomfortable as long as you make the changes not to do it again. Maybe think about what or how you write about women online, or that meme you shared or that joke about women. Maybe it’s not funny really when you look at it from a perspective of always being in fear of whatever that joke is about. Sometimes I scroll through things on this site that make me uncomfortable. Of course, I could be a massively humourless old bag now. It is quite likely because in all honesty I am tired of the way woman are treated. Since 2003 I’ve been reviewing police reports about child abuse and domestic abuse. The vast majority of perpetrators are men.

When you find out about a friend’s behaviour that you think is problematic – talk to them about it. Challenge them.

I’ve read that men are more likely to be the victims of male violence. So maybe some of the above would also help you guys not be at the receiving end of another male’s violence.

Oh and stop reading articles from ‘paper’s who continue to write about female deaths using victim blaming, who have a side bar of shame mainly about women, who sexualise teenage girls, it keeps their revenue going and keeps spreading problematic views.

I’m probably not really going to say anymore.

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Ok lied a bit there.

Ask women what would help, how they feel, you may find they have kept stuff hidden. We feel ashamed and scared so maybe that barrier needs to be broken down.

We also need a a justice system that believes us and can manage the number of incidents that do happen. Currently it is not fit for purpose. Maybe more women in the police force to deal with these issues. Not to say police men cannot but sometimes it’s hard to speak to a male about it.

This is quite a thread

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It’s after 6pm.

There’s plenty of places I wouldn’t walk through alone at night.

Are you suggesting equivalence?

I’d like a world where you also would feel free to walk anywhere you want at night. There are plenty of places for you but for a lot of women it is nearly all places that feel unsafe.

As I suggested above making some of these changes would also make you feel safer.

So we best get on with it hadn’t we?

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Thanks @Intiniki

It is so difficult, I have seen many of those horrific tweets today, many from friends and often they ask us Men to comment.
The truth is I can’t. There is nothing I can say that adds to the debate or adds any comfort.
Anything seems “pithy”

I can only step away from the debate and offer some experience. My kids grew up in Dubai, Yes, there are issues there, BUT from age 8 all my kids could come and go by taxi in safety, because the law was enforced and vigorously applied. Now I miss Baz who would come back with all the wrongs in the Middle East & fair enough.

Education yes, “mates” not standing for that behaviour- yes Policing - yes and so much more that the experts need to bring.

But then again, at every turn that stereotype gets enforced. Local TV is showing Lara Croft cradle of life and there is the perfectly formed woman (yes a strong, independent and powerful one) wearing a skin tight suit accentuating every “Mans’ desires”

Where to start?

What I do know?

Teeth are being gnashed. Nothing will be done to change societal behaviour

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No, I’m suggesting that there are places I wouldn’t walk through alone at night.

Thank you for this. What was said in the Commons earlier was so true. Nothing ever gets said about the number of dead women, it is just accepted.Hopefully this latest outrage might help continue awareness and dialogue to the point where it becomes constantly and loudly unacceptable.
You quoted something I said and I just wanted to make clear that of course you should be able to walk without fear, but some do not make it to their destination and the thing is to keep people safe as much as possible. Cressida Dick said that abduction was rare, not when you look at the numbers.

IF you are near Clapham

Women feared this was coming. They waited, messaging each other in WhatsApp groups and on social media. They talked about their own attempts to stay safe, discussed their near misses.

When the news came on Wednesday evening – that police investigating the disappearance of Sarah Everard had found the remains of a body – a wave of grief crashed over them, followed quickly by anger.

“I have never known such an outpouring of rage and fear,” said the feminist author and campaigner Caroline Criado-Perez. “She was just walking home, something that we have all done, and which we have all experienced fear doing.”


This week has shown us how far feminism still has to go
Gaby Hinsliff
Gaby Hinsliff
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Public anger, women’s anger, is rising. A Reclaim These Streets vigil is planned for Saturday evening on Clapham Common, London, and at least nine others are planned in towns and cities such as Cambridge, Cardiff, Liverpool and St Andrews.

“We are having a #MeToo moment right now,” said the writer Mary Morgan, one of the vigil’s organisers. “Women are sharing their stories, they are showing the world the realities of gender-based violence, and how deep and widespread of an issue it is. We need urgent societal change.”

The facts are stark: a woman dies at the hands of a man every three days, according to the Femicide Census carried out by Karen Ingala Smith and Clarrie O’Callaghan. According to their grim calculation 1,425 women and girls were killed in the UK between 2009 and 2018.

Those deaths are just the tip of a deep, profound and intractable iceberg, said Andrea Simon, the director of End Violence Against Women (Evaw). “Violence against women and girls is an epidemic, and it has reached endemic proportions,” she said.

The last year saw a global and national increase in domestic violence, and an increase in rape reports even as the number of prosecutions has collapsed. This week a UN Women UK survey revealed that almost all young women have experienced sexual harassment in public places.

Evaw’s most recent report from January reels off a battery of horrifying statistics: almost one in three women will experience domestic abuse, two women a week in England and Wales are killed by a current or former partner, more than half a million women are raped or sexually assaulted each year.

Simon pointed out that it is rare for a woman to be killed, rarer still by a stranger. According to 2018 ONS data, 33% of female homicide victims were killed by partners or ex-partners, compared with 1% of male victims.

But the total number of women killed in the year ending March 2019 increased by 10% from 220 to 241, the second consecutive annual increase and the highest number since 2006.

Women’s anxiety about walking streets at night is not irrational, but informed by knowledge of the violence women face on a daily basis, from micro-aggressions to murder, said Simon.

“We all know that fear. Every woman knows that fear of what might happen, if they just go about their everyday lives without thinking and planning and making decisions about where they can go, what they should wear, where they should sit,” she said.

A major part of the problem is the criminal justice system’s repeated failure, she said. Rape convictions, dropping since 2017, fell to a record low this year – only 1.4% of cases reported to the police resulted in a charge by the CPS. At least 1,000 fewer men accused of rape are currently being prosecuted than two years ago.

“There needs to be a consequence, and the criminal justice system is not delivering that,” said Simon. “Whether it’s sexual harassment, or the most serious sexual assault, there isn’t really a penalty being meted out to the vast majority of offenders – so where’s the deterrent?”

The past 12 months has also been particularly bleak for those working in tackling domestic abuse. During the first national lockdown the National Domestic Abuse Helpline saw an 80% increase in calls; Karma Nirvana, which supports victims of so-called “honour-based” abuse and forced marriage reported a 162% average increase in caseloads.

The government’s promise of £165m for domestic abuse support service falls far short of the £393m that Women’s Aid estimates is needed for domestic abuse alone. And the last three months of 2019 saw domestic abuse prosecutions fall by almost a quarter.

No one at government level is joining up the dots, said Farah Nazeer, chief executive of Women’s Aid.

With 92% of defendants in domestic abuse-related prosecutions in the year ending March 2020 recorded as male, and 77% female victims – the crime is heavily gendered.

“There is a blindness about what causes violence against women,” she said. “The abuse, harassment and murder of women is a reflection of systemic misogyny and sexism within society.”

06:32

Jess Phillips reads out names of women killed in Britain in the last year – video

The domestic abuse bill, reaching its final stages, is progress, she said. It will create a new domestic abuse tsar, recognise abuse can be emotional and economic, and end the defence of “rough sex”. Local authorities will have to provide safe accommodation to victims and their children, who are recognised as victims in their own right.

But, said Nazeer, it fails to reference the need and provision for “women’s refuges”, which she fears opens the door to generic provision becoming more common in the sector.

According to Imkaan research, 50% of specialist refuges have been forced to close or have been taken over in the last decade.

Further losses would be terrible news for black women and minoritised women, who are not only at greater risk, but are also more likely to be sidelined and ignored, said Pragna Patel, from Southall Black Sisters.

And while she welcomed the domestic abuse bill, it could not be divorced from a wider conversation about how patriarchy is embedded in state structures, she said.

“We need to explicitly acknowledge that violence against women and girls as a cause and consequence of gender inequality.”


The Guardian view on violence against women: without safety, there can be no equality
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New compulsory relationships and sexuality education in England was a step forward, but undermined by parents’ ability to opt out until the age of 15, she added.

The bill could also help shift the dial on the way violence against women is measured and treated, if an amendment to make all police forces to record misogyny as a hate crime is adopted, said Stella Creasy, the Labour MP for Walthamstow. “I urge every woman who has walked with keys in her hands at night, been abused or attacked online or offline to come forward and be heard,” she said.

“This is our moment for change – women should be equally able to live free from fear of assault or harm simply for who they are.”

But the law can only go so far, said Harriet Wistrich, the director of the Centre for Women’s Justice. “Laws are only worth the paper they are written on if they are implemented and combined with informed understanding about the way that women are targeted by male violence,” she said.

After a devastating week, women working to end violence against women and girls were tired, she added. “But we have to remember that it’s a battle,” she said. “That isn’t a reason to give up, it’s a reason to keep fighting.”

I’m not going to contribute to this thread anymore apart from to say thank you @Intiniki

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