Social Integration is not happening

A lot (and this is with any religion), boils down to whether or not you *actually believe it*.

Daniel Dennett made an excellent point that there’s a clear divide between religious people who ‘believe’, and those who ‘believe in belief’.

The latter, don’t *really* believe the claims of their book, but believe that faith, religion, tradition, the community spirit of getting together on Friday/Saturday/Sunday and the general idea of believing in something ‘greater than you’ are all jolly good things. As such, they take a whimsical approach to religion, go to church or wherever for Christmas, like the idea that their loved ones are in ‘heaven’ and so on, but outside of their religious bubble, take an entirely secular approach to life, politics, and ethics. They don’t believe that religion should play a part in politics, they don’t try and convert people, they have no problem with abortion/sex before marriage and so on.

The former however, *really do believe* the claims of their book (and this is the group that we in the West are far less used to as they’re far rarer).

Example; my aunt and uncles family are very religious - they’re into a fairly cultish baptist sect of Christianity that’s frankly, warped their kids completely. Their oldest (daughter, 20 years old now) was in and out of mental hospitals after cutting herself and suicide attempts, their second oldest (son, 16 now), literally doesn’t speak. Ever. Go up to him with a direct question and he’ll smile and shrug or look away. He’s got a brain the size of a planet but if you try and engage with him you’ll be met with nothing but silence and a smile.

Anyway, they’ve been encouraged to try and get their kids some kind of help, but my uncle insists on dealing with it inside the church. They have a completely blase ‘God-will-sort-everything-out’ mentality which (as you can imagine), has absolutely appalled my mum and sister (aunt is dad’s sister).

The trouble is however; they actually *believe* the Bible. Just let that sink in. They actually believe it. It sounds like an incredibly simple point to make but its actually the crucial factor in why they behave as they do. If you really do believe that all the claims of the Bible are true and that the Christian God is a real, existant thing, then what they say, do and believe makes perfect sense. Of course neither of their kids need help/serious medical attention/lifesaving medication for an obviously severe mental condition - God really will look after them and protect them!

A similar example is that I have an ex-Muslim friend of mine, who at the age of 20, was disowned by his parents for leaving Islam. He had to drop out of uni because they stopped supporting him, which meant that after 18 months of getting great grades and being on course for a 1st in Biology, he had to drop out and work at Sainsbury’s to pay off his rent. He obviously now doesn’t have a degree but actually managed to still do quite well (he works as a flight attendent for Virgin Atlantic (support their strike btw))

Anyway, his parents’ final message to him was not one of love, but for him to stay away from his younger brother (who was around 3 years old at the time).

That might sound horrible, evil and impossible for you to understand, but if what the Qu’ran says is true, then it makes perfect sense. Sultan (no harm using their real names here I guess) is going to spend eternity immersed in torture and the best option for his parents is to make sure he doesn’t sway Saqib away from the path of Allah and to eternal paradise.

He really struggled to get the support he needed as people are so scared to criticise Islam for fear of being accused of racism.

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This is the issue.

The vast majority of British Anglicans don’t really believe in the epistemological claims of their scripture.

There are a fair few Muslims, who I’m sure we’re all quite familiar with in our personal lives, who take a similar pick-and-choose approach, but I’d argue that the evidence suggests that the ‘true believer’ contingent within the Muslim population in Europe is far, far higher than any of our native religions.

I mean; saying “I believe in the Qu’ran but don’t think that religion should have any role in politics” is a directly contradictory statement. The Qu’ran actively prescribes a model of law for mankind to obey. Its completely inconsistent to say that the book is the word of the creator of the universe who must be obeyed at all times to secure eternity in paradise BUT lol not this part.

(EDIT: Another example just to even it up in terms of Islam/Christianity)

I remember speaking to CU members back at University - I always had more repsect for the evangelicals than the supposed ‘Christians’ who were ridiculously chilled with a whole ‘ah well I don’t try and convert anyone or whatever’ - it doesn’t make sense!

Evangelical Christians might take a lot of heat but they quite clearly mean well! Again, we come back to the point of whether you *actually believe* something. Put it this way; if you believed that God was as real as the computer screen you’re looking at, and you thought that an eternity in paradise/hell was at stake for every human being on Earth, would you just sit back and let them all muddle along!? Hell no! You’d frantically run around warning everyone how high the stakes were and what was on the line! That would be in every sense the right thing to do.

To supposedly believe that Jesus will come down, destroy the world, kill everyone and save those who believe in him within the next 50-100 years etc. *but not* tell anyone is completely inconsistent. Again, you have to wonder whether such people really do believe what they claim to believe.

Feck me but we’ve got some obviously well edumicated and articulate people on Sotonians.

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Originally posted by @gavstar

Are you confusing doctrine with dogma Barry?

No, Barry is confusing his arse with his elbow.

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Cracker bum boy girly pants.

Of course how can you not be, religion and cultures aren’t a pick and mix, I know Anglicans who always wanted a female bishop and had to wait for Libby Lane, I always said they were supporting a sexist insititutuion and they agreed but their faith was obviously stronger to them thay they allowed such a practice to carry on for so long, that doesn’t make it right or fair.

You can still be a good person and still by default be bad things, there are many grey areas in life.

This is a metaphor that only makes sense in your head Barry, are you are likening religious teachings/cultural norms to a ‘bag of sweets, to which you have no control over the contents of said bag of sweets, and you have to eat all of them or none of them, and not just pick out your favourites’?, if yes (and I’ll be amazed if I interpreted one of your cryptic comments properly) please answer my question on ‘dogma vs doctrine’.

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Good luck getting answers - everyone else has given up.

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No I am not confusing doctrine and dogma, can you be Muslim and gay? Can you kill youself if you’re a Catholic? These ancient rituals hold us back, they should be challenged.

Dogma and doctrine are all but a different word with the same meaning when it comes to faith.

In short the person may not be sexist, racist homophobic but their culture/religion is? So by that they themselves are, the same way not all Germans were Nazis but we fought them all and that ideology, the Germans had a resistance all the way throught the war, more should be told about them as well.

Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez

Can you kill youself if you’re a Catholic? These ancient rituals hold us back, they should be challenged.

lol fkn hell barry, why do you want Catholics to kill themselves?

Puel changed tactics and we won, I haven’t changed my opinon on him but I will and will apologise and show for the error of my ways if he continues, sounds fair to me…

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Bearsy I am metaphorically waving my finger at you and going tut tut!!!

Suicide is a sin my child.

http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21646001-even-religion-america-offers-more-choice-pick-and-mix

Its an age old term, used since organised religions began, adhere to all or nothing. Keeps the flock in line.

Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez

Originally posted by @Bearsy

Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez

Can you kill youself if you’re a Catholic? These ancient rituals hold us back, they should be challenged.

lol fkn hell barry, why do you want Catholics to kill themselves?

Suicide is a sin my child.

Ur ok to kill urself, as long as you go to Confession after and ask priest for Penance.

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Did you actually read that article or did you just google “pick and mix” and religion and post up the first link.

Saves the protestants a job

Originally posted by @CB-Saint

Originally posted by @Bearsy

Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez

Can you kill youself if you’re a Catholic? These ancient rituals hold us back, they should be challenged.

lol fkn hell barry, why do you want Catholics to kill themselves?

Saves the protestants a job

Ah Martin Luther, he was a groundbreaker, state and church spiit, doctrine of the two kingdoms.

People chosing their faiths, of course I read it, people choose what they want and blank out what they don’t and they don’t like it, same with faith don’t like it too much change and move.

Human nature, aren’t Catholics supposed to suffer in this life and get to heaven thereafter? What a load of shit, and they use the copout blessed are the poor ha ha load of shit.

Dogma and doctrine do have different meanings. The level at which people adhere to the doctrine is what can be variable from person to person.

The main point I’m going to make is that I think it’s unfair of you to say that all members of any faith share the bad aspects of that faith, and that they just lie there and accept it. I think you need to realise that religious doctrine does get changed, just not at the pace you would like.

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