Originally posted by @SuperMikey
As much as they were horrible, nasty little shits - you have to say that the likes of Hussein and Gaddafi did a lot to keep a lid on extremism when they were about. We rushed in and deposed them (for what reason again?) without a credible strategy to thwart the rise of radicalism. We created the vacuum of power in which IS now thrives and with each drone strike, bombing raid and “interrogation” we run the risk of shepherding even more angry, gullible and scared people into the hands of terrorists. But we can’t take any of the blame for it though, it’s cos all them Muslamics are evil like.
We rushed is as they were a pain in the arse, democracy was supposed to take their place, it didn’t and couldn’t as the void was filled with tribalism and extreme versions of a book of lies funded by the Saudis, why haven’t they helped their Muslim brothers again?
Originally posted by @pap
Originally posted by @Sadoldgit
I agree. I have been trying to get my head around this stuff all day and unless you believe what some on TSW are saying (It is all down to Islam) it is a hugely complex situation that is growing more complex by the day.
I’ve seen you fighting the good fight over there, but it’s probably futile. Same old suspects that usually crawl out of the woodwork with racist shite, only armed with a pseudo-legitimate (in their eyes, anyway) excuse for their prejudice.
You expect anger and frustration when things like this happen but some of the comments over there should have some of them up on hate crime charges. We keep talking about how Briatin is so tolerant but it doesnt take that much for the xenophobes to climb out of the woodwork
Britain is probably the most tolerant place I have been to. Its subjective I know but there aren’t many more tolerant places on the planet.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing! Sometimes it is better to stay in bed with the devil you know. The main thing is though the credible strategy thing. That is where it has all gone terribly wrong.
John Pilger, the world’s journalist, doing his thing and rendering my earlier post the crayon daubing of a child.
And by fuck, I love him for it.
Sad to see the number of people taking the opportunity to peddle Britain First hatred.
The latest cricket fans video from 2009 is typical - people are just too thick or too racist to check out the facts.
I liked the England where people were smart enough to make up their own mind and shrewd enough to know when they are being conned.
I want my country back!
Sigh…
I wonder Nick, as a white middle-class male who was born and raised in this country, should I “go some place else” if I don’t agree with British foreign policy? Or can you only get away with saying that to people called Mahmoud?
If the people of Luxembourg suddenly decided they wanted to commit heinous acts of terrorism in the name of all people in Europe, would that be representative of the overall population of Europe? Would it then be the responsibility of every single person living in Europe to personally combat that extremsism?
Backlash like this just plays into the hands of the people who look to exploit disenfranchised young Muslims - ISIS wants a war against the West and a lack of tolerance and understanding from our media is the perfect tool for them to recruit more gullible and confused people for their cause.
I’ve seen this attitude loads before, and it’s difficult to know where to start. The white supremacy angle is as good as any, I guess. Ferrari’s comments come from the school of thought that says deep down, brown people don’t belong here. They’re not English in his eyes, and can seemingly return to wherever they came from, because that sort of thing is easy for Nick Ferrari to conceive. You see the same thing all over football forums; you just don’t expect it.
Not untypical of people his age. While I’ve no wish to tar everyone that age with the same brush, those attitudes are more prevalent there.
Umm wasn’t Hussein waging a war against the Kurds in his country, weren’t the Iraqi Kurds regularly persecuted because they were the wrong sort of Islam? Wasn’t he guilty of using chemical weapons against Kurdish people and hiding it behind the Iran-Iraq conflict? Isn’t that a form of extremism?
And Gaddafi endorsed the Lockerbie bombing and the Libyan Embassy siege of 1984, isn’t that extremism?
We tried to help Iraq sort itself out post Hussein but the two sides (Sunnis and Kurds) had too much history couldn’t reconcile, decided that civil war (in the form of blowing innocents up) is the answer, it is this that IS have taken advantage of in Iraq!
I agree with the first part of your sentence in blod but I still think it’s 6 of one, 1/2 a dozen of the other. We should take our fair portion of the blame but what has happened does not make it right for a few deranged/misguided people to decide that blowing the fuck out of innocents is the way to go!!
…a sad truth is that there is still a lot of racism out there… its just become more covert as it became less socially acceptable to spout it or wear bigotry on your sleeve as a badge of honour. The IS attacks look to find fertile ground with those who are still bitter that they cant be so overtly racist anymore because of all this political correctness (gone mad…yawn). They feed on this pond life knowing that they will spread further intolerance and hatred - creating the very divisions they are seeking… the vicious circle of hate simple grows.
All reasonable folks need to stand up together on this. Sorry ‘Barry’ but now is NOT the time to debate our opinions or otherwise on the teachings of relgious dogma (although your motives are so transparent) - Now is the time for the vast majority to demonstrate they above such rubbish - and not let fear overshadow compassion, hate and intolerance overshadow decency and respect.
Given that the Saudis seem to be funding this extremism, and we have surplus oil production and 3bn barrels currently in storage (a year’s production for Saudi) - why doesnt the world just turn round to the saudis and say “continue to fund these wankers and we don’t buy your oil”.
Surely the balance of power re oil has shifted now
I’m not saying that we should have put up with their actions, as clearly they committed some deplorable crimes against their own people and also had a hand in crimes on a more international scale (i.e. Lockerbie). Clearly they got what they deserved, but I think we needed to establish ahead of time which was the lesser of two evils - allow this to continue and hamper them with sanctions etc or depose them and risk this kind of situation happening. The likes of Mugabe, Kim-Jong Il etc have had extended reigns of terror over their respective nations in a similar fashion to Hussein & Gaddafi, but we’ve pursued them on more of a supranational stage with embargoes, sanctions etc. Maybe that was the more sensible route? Obviously hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the factor of Iraq, Libya etc being oil-exporting nations has obviously played into this conflict far too much and has now contributed heavily to the situation we now face.
Originally posted by @BTripz
Umm wasn’t Hussein waging a war against the Kurds in his country, weren’t the Iraqi Kurds regularly persecuted because they were the wrong sort of Islam? Wasn’t he guilty of using chemical weapons against Kurdish people and hiding it behind the Iran-Iraq conflict? Isn’t that a form of extremism?
The Iraqi regime used chemical weapons against the Iranians in the Iran-Iraq war, a conflict that Saddam was egged into starting by Western interests. He made the call ultimately, but not without knowing that he would get support from the West. And get support he did; we sold him most of the ordnance he dropped on the Iranians and the Kurds.
I would also like to point out that Iraq is not alone in using chemical weapons, a fact which speaks to the hypocrisy of the West. The US can deploy white phosphorous in Fallujah, or Israel does it in Gaza (still smoking to this day, apparently) and it’s apparently okay for Saddam (and others) to do it, as long as they continue to play ball.
And Gaddafi endorsed the Lockerbie bombing and the Libyan Embassy siege of 1984, isn’t that extremism?
Of course it was, but we’re still supporting extremists like Saudi Arabia today in places like Yemen. You cannot make the argument that the Saudis are good for the region. They’ve sponsored many of the terrorist groups that we are supposed to be fighting, including Al Qaeda and ISIS.
The problem with arguing that people like Saddam are bad people, and have to go, is that we’re not even-handed about our stated principles. Our actual principles, and this has been true since Lyndon Johnson’s time, are to do whatever it takes to defend Western corporate interests. Libya and Iraq don’t qualify, but the West has toppled democracies to get what it wants before. Iran and Chile are just two examples.
We tried to help Iraq sort itself out post Hussein but the two sides (Sunnis and Kurds) had too much history couldn’t reconcile, decided that civil war (in the form of blowing innocents up) is the answer, it is this that IS have taken advantage of in Iraq!
Not according to that John Pilger article I linked, which pretty much says we did the exact opposite. After sanction, the country had $100 a year for each of its citizens. An extra half million children under five died. That’s not trying to help Iraq sort itself out; that’s making sure it never can, and it never did.
I agree with the first part of your sentence in blod but I still think it’s 6 of one, 1/2 a dozen of the other. We should take our fair portion of the blame but what has happened does not make it right for a few deranged/misguided people to decide that blowing the fuck out of innocents is the way to go!!
Equally, we have not been right in the wars we have undertaken since 2001, and most of those killed in the countries that we have invaded are just as innocent as party-goers in Paris. None of these acts are right, but it certainly is not six of one and half a dozen of the other.
The most powerful country in the world started two wars of aggression in a part of the world it has no business being in; millions have died, the citizens of the West are at a greater risk, largely because we’ve upset so many people and we’ve created the conditions for groups like ISIS to exist. Fuck knows what involvement we actually had in the Arab Spring, but I’d wager it was “more than none”.
This is blowback from foreign policy, and we do ourselves no long-term favours by trying to balance the equation to make that policy look less morally bankrupt. We are responsible, directly or indirectly, for most of the death over there. Extremists are responsible for all the death that has been caused here. I don’t want to see any more of it, anywhere. Neither side is right,. but I think you can argue that people expect less violent solutions from democratic governments than they do with a bunch of paid mercenaries in the Middle East.
Apologies pap, I know you don’t like the harking back to ‘there’ and I get why. But, an interaction our Mikey had over there in which he talked about his move to Scotland which the reply was “Why don’t you just move there then?”. It was peak SWF. One of my favourite swf moments.
That attitude is, unfortunately, not restricted to that little corner of the web or particularly uncommon. There are swathes of people, across all walks of life that simply cannot handle the slightest bit of criticism. Have issues with Britain’s foreign policy? YOU HATE BRITAIN!!! UNPATRIOTIC WANKER!! GO BACK TO WHERE YOU CAME FROM!!! Say that women’s portrayal in a video game you otherwise really like is a bit shitty? WHY DON’T YOU JUST MAKE YOUR OWN GAME/NOT PLAY IT THEN?? etc.
It helps nothing whatsoever. It’s not remotely constructive.
Originally posted by @SuperMikey
Backlash like this just plays into the hands of the people who look to exploit disenfranchised young Muslims - ISIS wants a war against the West and a lack of tolerance and understanding from our media is the perfect tool for them to recruit more gullible and confused people for their cause.
Does it though? I’m not so sure it’s at the top of their agenda. Transit routes for indoctrinated young men to travel to Syria and Iraq in order to support their activity have been severly restricted so they appear to be encouraged or forced to carry out their jihad in other places. Obviously my HO, but I’d be suprised if IS want to extend their fight wholesale to Europe.
However, I agree that the gnorance and generalisation of the a large sector of the shit-for-brains public will have the unfortunate consequence of encouraging disaffected and vulnerable young Muslims into joining more hardline Islamist groups and gobshite radio presenters given airtime don’t help.
Originally posted by @Sadoldgit
You expect anger and frustration when things like this happen but some of the comments over there should have some of them up on hate crime charges. We keep talking about how Briatin is so tolerant but it doesnt take that much for the xenophobes to climb out of the woodwork
I’m not a believer in prosecuting people for what they say, particularly if it’s a general opinion, so I wouldn’t be looking to drag anyone up in court over comments they’ve made. Freedom of expression, innit? I just think you’re fighting a losing battle, because you can’t beat the mob, and I think it’s getting to that stage where you are their default target.
Spot on there Pap! Apart from the mob mentality I think there are few there with racist tendancies but are feeling touchy because they cant come out and admit what they really think. So they skirt around the edges and try and muddy the debate with personal attacks. Nope I cant beat the mob but if I can out a few on the way it will be time well spent!
What is transparent? The irony of that is amazing, we can all stand together and I agree but that doesn’t stop me liking the religion does it? Do you like it? The writings of it? You are advocating it by not bringing it up. Religius freedom yes but not at the cost of equality, fuck that, fuck that totally.
Uff here he goes again.
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
Sorry ‘Barry’ but now is NOT the time to debate our opinions or otherwise on the teachings of relgious dogma (although your motives are so transparent) - Now is the time for the vast majority to demonstrate they above such rubbish - and not let fear overshadow compassion, hate and intolerance overshadow decency and respect.
What is transparent? The irony of that is amazing, we can all stand together and I agree but that doesn’t stop me liking the religion does it? Do you like it? The writings of it? You are advocating it by not bringing it up. Religius freedom yes but not at the cost of equality, fuck that, fuck that totally.
He’s saying ur afraid of Muslims, Barry. That is ur transparent motivations, pure cowardice re: Islam bros. In a word, ur Chicken Jalfrezi! BWAAAARK!