:labour: New Old Labour in trouble

Reasonably serious discussion
1521

It is genuinely for real. As the previous image I did demonstrated, the Smith team originally planned to do the rally inside Camp & Furnace, a venue that claims to be the festival experience inside a building, capacity 500.

That changed yesterday morning. The Camp & Furnace booking was cancelled. There were some claims that people had been phoning up in protest and got it cancelled, but looking at those numbers, it could have just have easily been cancelled for other reasons. The local journo counted it at 80-100 people.

The other thing to note is that the venue is right on the edge of the city centre, on an industrial estate. Footfall would have been nowhere near the city centre. Owen’s probably trying to keep his ice cream bill manageable.

I did find it interesting that I saw Liverpool described as “enemy territory” ahead of the rally in tons of different newspapers (you can still find it now). Must have come from the Smith camp - too commonly occurring to say otherwise. Can’t imagine all these newspapers just decided that Liverpool was enemy territory independently.

Probably just trying to keep expectations suitably low, but I suspect that it’s more about trying to portray Monday’s rally, which will be huge, as of interest only to “the enemy”.

2 Likes
1522

It was for Michael Foot or did I misjudge that as well :lou_lol:

1 Like
1523

i was only a child in Foots day but i do remember(spitting image i think) the way he was portrayed. Didn’t they deliberately emphasise the dirty old man in a mac look?

Shit, you’re right. Done properly the media can destroy anyone, with the most irrelevant little thing.

4 Likes
1524

Originally posted by @PhilippineSaint

It was for Michael Foot or did I misjudge that as well :lou_lol:

Little bit, I reckon. A lot of the time, when can be as important as who.

Real life example that most of us will get - the rare occasions when any of us fine lookin’ forum types are single. We probably just about remember them. Anyway, I’d either be in one of two moods, looking for a girlfriend, or looking for something a lot more short-term and with less strings attached. When, not who. If you’re in shagging mode only, doesn’t matter what comes your way. You’re not going to change your life for it.

How the fuck does that relate to Corbyn, you might ask?

When, not who.

If you think about the conditions under which power has changed hands since 1979, and probably before, there are a lot of things each time has in common.

First, people were almost entirely fucked off with the present government.

Second, the winning party (or coalition) has done some major re-shaping and PR work to get itself in a position where the public no longer believes it to be the thing they rejected last time out.

Finally, for now, every Prime Minister we’ve chucked out after 1979 is not the one that swept to power. Fair play to John Major - he actually did achieve a mandate of his own, but Brown never got the public’s backing to be PM, and we don’t know if May will either.

Foot is a classic case of when, not who himself. In the months leading up the Falklands, Thatcher had the worst ratings in polling history. She rose to 59% after troops had secured the islands, and went on to secure a landslide victory in 1983 that pundits a couple of years earlier would have considered impossible.

When the time comes, May will need to have played a similar blinder to avoid what befalls most Prime Ministers in her position.

1525

Man of the people :lou_lol:

1 Like
1526

so May will declare war against a country that’s relatively easy to defeat, them immediately call a general election.

Spain to invade Gibraltar?

1 Like
1527

She got re-elected on the back of a conflict (war) win over the Falklands does that not tell you something about the British phsych ?

May could have the same Battle on her hands with the oil that has now been discovered down there and the ways the Argentinians are making it difficult for the oil firms to operate.

1528

Originally posted by @PhilippineSaint

She got re-elected on the back of a conflict (war) win over the Falklands does that not tell you something about the British phsych ?

I think it definitely tells you something about the British psyche then, just as Reagan’s ridiculous invasion of South Grenada did for the US. There were people with living memory of us having an empire, and there were US citizens that remembered their humiliation in Vietnam.

Both actions were used as positive propaganda for countries with recent memories of military impotence.

May could have the same Battle on her hands with the oil that has now been discovered down there and the ways the Argentinians are making it difficukt for the oil firms to operate.

Would the Argentinians ever be as stupid as to invade again? I doubt it. May won’t get her war. The public is weary of it in general, and if we genuinely reported on the atrocities our money has paid for, put it front and centre, most public appetite for war would disappear altogether, just as it did when Americans saw the napalm hitting those South Asian kids.

1529

There is not even a contest to be had! As the old saying goes, ‘If this was in the boxing ring, it would be over by knock out by now’. It is only the dirty tactics of blocking voters, by charging this £25 that has made it even a slight contest.

Pas I have said before, I will revert to my £3 membership if Smith gets in. The reason I joined the Labour Party was because of the fantastic work that JC has been doing in getting labour back to it’s roots!

1530

Nicking your boxing metaphor, the fight would have been stopped a long time ago by any referee that was thinking about the safety of the boxer, or indeed, the repute of the overall enterprise.

I’m also not sure how much the £25 voting contest can be fixed, even if someone wanted to. After all the hoo-hah about the £3 entryists last time, and how they could sway the result away from the membership, turned out that people broadly voted the same way.

If it turns out that the wing of the party well known for getting loads of corporate donations _thrives _in an environment where the cost of entry is £25, and there is seemingly no interest in their candidate, questions will be asked.

1 Like
1531

The other thing, amusing more than anything else, is the number of people complaining on Twitter today because they got Owen Smith campaign texts in the middle of the night.

Dude, there are people sleeping off hangovers :lou_lol:

1 Like
1532

Ah, all is becoming clear! :lou_lol:

http://rochdaleherald.co.uk/entertainment/owen-smith-character-is-my-best-yet-says-sacha-baron-cohen/

1533

John McDonnell is playing a canny game, calling on Owen Smith to condemn those that are talking about splitting the party. It has backed Smith’s lot into a position where their best response is “we don’t comment on rumour”.

Owen Smith has attracted the tag “disunity candidate”.

1534

I read that today. Was surprised he said it as he can’t now comment on rumours(an unnamed source) his own lot are feeding the press.

1 Like
1535
4 Likes
1536

Piece for the Guardian by Jezza here.

I like what he says there, but then I guess I would do.

1537

It’s a very well put together article, even for those that aren’t traditional Labour voters. When you think of the traditional arguments that are often laid against Labour, namely that they’re going to be the medium through which the feckless thrive, this goes some way to addressing it.

Focusing on employment rights is a smart move. Loads of people have a problem with those that won’t work. Far fewer will have a genuine problem with someone that isn’t trying, yet the system is failing. Few will have an issue with schemes that incentivises people to get out to work. Most will recognise that they could be just as vulnerable to the slings and arrows of what can be a cruel market, and most will recognise that the market has been getting crueller.

The rather obvious statement that a one hour contract is not much better than a zero hour contract was a smart dig at Smith’s policy. Enumerating cases of malfeasance, such as Sir Philip Green, allowed him to have a pop at Blair and Cameron. I really like the way Corbyn takes the piss :lou_wink_2:

But nowhere has the need for reform of corporate Britain been more cruelly exposed than at BHS. This was the goose that laid golden eggs for Sir Philip Green. Knighted under Tony Blair, Green was appointed by David Cameron as his “tsar” for government efficiency. Green efficiently avoided his taxes, asset-stripped the company and left the government to pick up the pieces for 11,000 discarded workers and 20,000 worried pensioners. The former BHS owner will never know the insecurity faced by his ex-employees or millions of other workers legally exploited by bad bosses.

1 Like
1538

The only change I can see that might work is that dividends are banned whilst a pension deficit exists. If the start going down a route of recoverability from owners, then the concept of Limited Liability will be totally undermined

1539

I loved every word and it’s so refreshing that somewhere, someone is talking about the company as built on its workers and not just as a cost to be reduced wherever possible.

But as you hint at Flyd, he’s preaching to the choir. I fear that the message just won’t travel.

The last GE and parts of the Brexit vote have proved to me that while we might recognise that much of our economic woe stems from bosses’ attitudes, when push comes to shove we look to protect ourselves instead of working together.

Our only hope is if the growth in Labour as a social movement continues apace. If that happens then attitudes can and will change. Labour would be an enormous focus group that politicians of all shades would ignore at their peril.

The Union. We’re stronger together.

But if no one out there understands then start your own revolution and cut out the middleman.

2 Likes
1540

I reckon Paul Mason’s piece on how Labour goes about winning a general election is possibly better than Corbyn’s, simply because he has the distance to be able to spell out some very hard truths, yet still believes a victory can be achieved.

A long read, but well worth your time if you can’t see past the centrist routes to power.