:labour: New Old Labour in trouble

Reasonably serious discussion
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Originally posted by @TheCholulaKid

Downvoting you for the Buctootim hate.

Cherts has his reasons, but FWIW, I like the bloke, even though the latest news is that he holds me in contempt. Loved debating with him when he was in his zone; wasn’t as much of a fan of some of his other approaches. The way I see it, our debates were vicious, highly entertaining and had the pair of us going out on some unholy limbs. It’s fair to say that the pair of us could have handled it better.

I followed him from the sotonians Twitter account a while ago in a pre-emptive olive branch attempt. Even if we let the water pass under the bridge, I’m still not convinced he will cross over.

He’s hung Verbal out to dry a couple of times over there which have been deserved.

I keep an eye on all rival forums, so I’ve seen this, and agree. Better still, he’s actually played the post, and is keeping calm. The only slight dampener is that this isn’t Ferguson-era Verbal; the fella really has got himself into an unholy rage over Corbyn. He is not his usual bullet-proof self.

Fuck knows why Bictootim persists though…

Conspiracy theory time. Nature abhors a vacuum. The position of “site intellectual” over there appears to be up for grabs, Discounting a renaissance of the Verbal artistry that once dominated the place, I see three immediately obvious candidates; buctootim, CB Fry and shurlock. Two realistic ones.

In spite, and perhaps because of, all the times CB Fry declares himself correct, I think he’s out of the running. Kanye proves that the self-proclaimed genius tag never applies, even if your shit is really good, buctootim seems to have moderated his tone to become a much more effective debater, and despite shurlock occasionally having a snipe, he’s nibbled away at the big boys without fear and posted some very interesting shit.

These are new, strange times, people. The only thing I can tell you with certainty is that when the dust settles, hypo will emerge from the carnage suspiciously unscathed, claiming he was on the winning side all along.

While I wish SaintsWeb gladiators well in the forthcoming struggle for intellectual supremacy and the lazy approbation of posters impressed with polysyllabic prose, I would be remiss if I did not mention that the Sotonians “site intellectual” post has been vacated. I was considering giving it to bletch uncontested, but I’m concerned about his recent cider intake. Consequently, the position is now open for internal and external applicants.

Sotonians - gathering a fighting force of extraordinary magnitude. Nearly as much of a TSW fansite as TUI.

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He’s a brillantly smart bloke that genuinely illuminates on his day, but his arguments are as defeatable as any other if they’re poorly-formed, highly speculative or abusive. His recent comments on Corbyn and/or his supporters haven’t been much else.

If Furball ever does make it back to these shores, I hope he reads this thread, especially the part where Cherts and CB Saint give Corbyn some props for the Oldham victory. The tiniest bit of compromise and respect can create better conditions for constructive debate and site harmony.

Though near-fanatical certainty, intolerance of other views and abuse is capable of burning the sturdiest of bridges, he’s always welcome to cross over here.

Besides, I’ve got a burning question regarding the ideological compatibility of:-

a) being a passionate lifelong Labour supporter looking to save the party from the left-wing menace
b) parroting the Conservative PM’s disgusting “terrorist sympathiser” slur about the Labour leader.

I feel he would be just the man to answer.

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This is what I don’t understand about him, he doesn’t need to resort to these generalised insults about ‘Corbynites’, he’s intelligent and erudite enough to not need to argue that way.

There is also the fact that in all debates you should try to be as open minded and objective as possible. If someone just denies everything one says, even in the face of proof, then it is mightily frustrating.

I will criticise when I feel it’s earnt, but I will also praise.

284

No you won’t.

:lou_wink_2:

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285

Originally posted by @Goatboy

Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint

Originally posted by @pap

Originally posted by @Goatboy

How long before Verbs strops off SWF and comes back for another go over here? Someone has to piss on pap’s Corbyn shrine :lou_wink_2:

He’s a brillantly smart bloke that genuinely illuminates on his day, but his arguments are as defeatable as any other if they’re poorly-formed, highly speculative or abusive. His recent comments on Corbyn and/or his supporters haven’t been much else.

If Furball ever does make it back to these shores, I hope he reads this thread, especially the part where Cherts and CB Saint give Corbyn some props for the Oldham victory. The tiniest bit of compromise and respect can create better conditions for constructive debate and site harmony.

Though near-fanatical certainty, intolerance of other views and abuse is capable of burning the sturdiest of bridges, he’s always welcome to cross over here.

Besides, I’ve got a burning question regarding the ideological compatibility of:-

a) being a passionate lifelong Labour supporter looking to save the party from the left-wing menace
b) parroting the Conservative PM’s disgusting “terrorist sympathiser” slur about the Labour leader.

I feel he would be just the man to answer.

This is what I don’t understand about him, he doesn’t need to resort to these generalised insults about ‘Corbynites’, he’s intelligent and erudite enough to not need to argue that way.

There is also the fact that in all debates you should try to be as open minded and objective as possible. If someone just denies everything one says, even in the face of proof, then it is mightily frustrating.

I will criticise when I feel it’s earnt, but I will also praise.

No you won’t.

:lou_wink_2:

Is this you getting involved in political debates at last Goat?

286

Yep. That’s your lot. :lou_lol:

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287

Tom Watson has had to issue an apology for jumping the gun over reports that Stella Creasy’s home was a target for demonstrators, or even that her constituency staff were harrassed.

Frankly, it was hugely irresponsible of him to regurgitate those claims without fact-checking.

Still, better late than never, eh?

288

This is a very good letter from a reader of the Guardian, explaining why he is no longer buying the paper or visiting the website.

Indeed, over these past few months, I have come to understand the nature of the Guardian: it’s certainly not a modern incarnation of the “Poor Man’s Guardian”. That paper, originating in 1831, was part of the radical press which burgeoned following the advent of the printing press. It provided for the news and intellectual needs of working people, having as its motto “knowledge is power”.

Today’s Guardian is “guardian” in a more Orwellian sense: a paper that polices leftwing discourse, that sets limits on what is acceptable for leftwing politics, and what is acceptable is basically Blair without Iraq. Rafael Behr, Polly Toynbee, Jonathan Freedland: all are echoing this anti-Corbyn, essentially Blairite line.

2 Likes
289

Maybe the Guardian are just playing the tune that the majority of their readers want to hear. It’s the Labour party that has shifted left not every guardian reader.

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I have been a long-time reader of the paper and the website, and it was genuinely out of character. This was a paper quite happy to feature left wing opinion for years, so the amount of negative coverage was very jarring. Still is, really.

291

Tony Blair issues another missive from the Fortress of Irrelevance concerning Corbyn and the “tragedy of the Labour Party”.

I’m certain it is a personal tragedy for Mr Blair. While the experts are certain the Corbyn won’t get elected in 2020. they’ve been wrong before. One thing is for certain; a successful left-wing government would destroy Blairism, rendering it a blip in Labour’s history, rather than the defining turning point Blair wants it to be. Probably why he’s so aghast at the prospect.

292

Here’s another one for the mock shock brigade

Jeremy Corbyn Courts Controversy By Quoting Albanian Dictator Enver Hoxha At Labour Christmas Party

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Got a view on Corbyn?

/how-do-you-rate-jeremy-corbyns-performance-as-labour-leader-so-far?CMP=share_btn_fb

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Done - thanks for posting!

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296

John “Two Jabs” Prescott weighs in with a view on Corbyn’s Parliamentary Labour Party critics. I like ‘bitterite’. Whether Two Jabs intended it or not, it’s phonetically near-identical to “bit o’ right”.

John Prescott has accused critics of Jeremy Corbyn within his own party of continuing “the war that they lost”, describing Labour MPs opposed to the Labour leader as “Bitterites”.

“As the leader, he has earned the right democratically to lead the party,” said the former Labour deputy prime minister. “But there are some people in the party, who I call the Bitterites, who want to continue the war that they lost.”

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297

Fair play to Jeremy Corbyn for attending the Stop The War rally. It’s somewhat crazy that the organisation is attracting as much crap as it does. An anti-war organisation being treated as revolutionary. For fuck’s sake.

I’ve seen some of the bollocks written about Stop The War, especially by Bitterites (still loving it, Two Jabs) trying to conflate its anti-war position with an anti-Western one. Perhaps these people forget that the West has been at war since 2002, or don’t realise that anyone under 20 won’t have memories of not being at war. For them, especially those in other countries that have seen the full force of the ordnance, the West is war.

How many more decades do we want of this?

298

Super piece by Brendan O’Neill here.

There’s a dark, twisted irony to the anti-Corbyn lobby’s claim that Jeremy Corbyn is destroying the Labour Party. Which is that these bitter Blairites, Labour moderates, right-leaning commentators and others who come out in hives at the mere sight of Corbyn’s countenance are a far greater threat to the health and future of Labour than Corbyn could ever be. In fact, it has become clear in recent weeks that Corbyn’s loathers aren’t only polluting Labour with their infighting, backstabbing and incessant bitching about Corbyn; they threaten to undermine the exercise of open, free politics in Britain more broadly.

As we at spiked have made clear many times, we’re no fans of Corbyn. His illiberal, state-reliant worldview, with its eco-friendly disdain for large economic growth and its authoritarian-friendly distrust of ordinary people’s capacity to govern their lives, is about as far from spiked’s radical humanism as you can get. In normal circumstances, we’d be publishing loads of critiques of what is fancifully termed ‘Corbynism’. But things aren’t normal. For there’s another political trend, or political revulsion, that is having a far more warping impact on the democratic sphere than Corbyn, and which demands the critical attention of all progressives.

That trend, that revulsion, is CounterCorbynism.

299

Dan Hodges leaves the Labour Party forever. Again. It was the final straw, apparently :lou_lol:

2013
There are a number of reasons I left; Syria was just the final straw. I genuinely never thought I’d see the day when a brutal despot would drop nerve gas on children, a Tory leader would say “we need to do something about this”, and the leader of my party would say: “Hold on. Not so sure. Think we might need to take a rain check.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/10277706/Syria-was-the-last-straw-Ive-now-quit-the-Labour-Party.html

2015
Commentator Dan Hodges reveals to Shelagh the “final straw” that’s led him to quit the Labour Party.
The political writer, whose mother Glenda Jackson was a Labour MP, said the Stop The War Christmas party was the “final straw”.
Jeremy Corbyn attended the party last week, causing consternation amongst moderate members of the party he leads.
http://www.lbc.co.uk/were-seeing-death-of-labour-dan-hodges-on-why-hes-quit-party-121600

:lou_facepalm_2:

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Originally posted by @pap

I’ve seen some of the bollocks written about Stop The War, especially by Bitterites (still loving it, Two Jabs) trying to conflate its anti-war position with an anti-Western one. Perhaps these people forget that the West has been at war since 2002, or don’t realise that anyone under 20 won’t have memories of not being at war.

:lou_sad: Sounds like the Stop the War bros are doing a pretty shit job. Must be like a glimpse into the future for Corbyn, in the Why Don’t Ppl Take Me Srs Stakes

1 Like