That is so fuckin’ sad and I’m very aware of how nasty Crohn’s is…my sister has had it for over 30 years. Her health took a downturn about 18 months ago and she lost lots of weight. It was evindent she needed major replumbing to restore her health and last September she underwent surgery at The General that they said would probably last 6 - 8 hours.
I’m a born optimist and was confident all would be well but as the day went on my optimism was put to the test…no call when expected and the day dragged on. By 8 in the evening I was pacing up and down, I couldn’t sit still, should I phone, should I wait. At 9.30 I got the call from my brother-in-law…she was safe…she had come through the surgery well, all 12 hours of it…I burst into floods of tears.
My sister is well, she looks well but she lives with Crohn’s every day and will always have to live with it…she’s lucky she has the NHS.
Hats off and love to all of you who live with “invisible” conditions, hats off and love to all who work in The NHS.
I’m afraid that I, too, find the title unnecessarily provocative and offensive … yes, even with the fucking question-mark . Perhaps you have to have personally suffered from clinical depression or some other ‘invisible’ mental illness like depersonalization disorder in order to understand why it is so offensive; but, if that is the case, then, frankly, it’s pretty disappointing in this day and age. The title also misrepresents what Rogan is saying.
Still, never mind, the title hasn’t prevented the thread, itself, turning out to be one of the most interesting ones on here for a long while, with some marvellously heart-felt, candid, brave, insightful and helpful contributions. Good stuff, fellas (and Intiniki); I hope people will draw inspiration from your posts.
My best wishes to all those suffering from these wretched illnesses.
One of the side-effects is that (whilst everything else is rocking and rolling downstairs) - it takes absolutely ages to cum when wanking or having sex - so its definitely doing *something* in terms of having a chemical effect.
Having said that, the way SSRIs work is by bumping up the seretonin in your brain. They aren’t 100% sure that low seretonin is what is behind a lot of depression but I’d say the drugs *seems* to help. Particularly with things like worrying and anxiety. Difficult to say though as in my life a lot of shit has just generally improved luckily enough.
The trouble is - I know a lot of people (particularly at the recovery cafe) who insist that drugs don’t do anything and that all mental illnesses are down to some kind of failure of spirit or whatever - and that a positive attitude can change everything and yadayadayada.
Course, its all happy-go-lucky hippy shit until the girl suffering from schizophrenia stops taking her pills (and to be fair antipsychotics are fucking horrible drugs which cause you to be thoroughly depressed, tired and permanently sleepy from what I’ve heard) - and then ends up losing it big time and getting sectioned or whatever.
For now, I’d strongly recommend following the doctor’s orders when it comes to drugs for mental health.
I will do something I dont often do and sort of defend Pap as I know for certain he has not meant to offend anyone despite it being easily done with the title. I think it was a genuine attempt to present a provocative question and stimulate the very strong and emotionally mature debate on the issue this thread has delivered, albeit maybe I can be so bold as to suggest a bit clumsy in the thread title execution?
I think part of the issue is that the drugs dont work for everyone with the same diagnosis (they are afterall only able to provide soe symptomatic relief), and as previously mentioned, in those cases where they dont,its easy to see how this might be interpreted that the illness itself is not something that can be impacted on by drug intervention…usually its that the right drug for the individual has not been determined. In schizophrenia patients for example, some drugs have be great for relieving psychotic episodes, yet also increase paranoia, which is why many patients are reluctant to take long acting formulations despite this helping compliance.
But with depression, as Pap states, it does depend really on whether you have a diagnosed clinical depression, or are suffering from something else… too often anti-depressent drugs are prescribed without really looking to a) get a complete diagnosis, and b) provide appropriate therapy sessions that would complement or be a better alternative to drugs alone.
Although I do agree that they can help some people alleviate the symptoms of depression, some of the side effects can have even longer lasting consequences.
Having said that, I honestly believe that if I hadn’t taken them when I did I would have been dead years ago which is a pretty long-lasting consequence in itself! lol
In hindsight I wish I had looked into more alternative/natural solutions, or even taken the time to find out WHY I was suffering from depression. I still haven’t figured that one out, but there’s always the fear that if you dig too deeply it might suck you back into that dark hole and that’s not a gamble I’m prepared to take.
At least now I notice the symptoms and can make lifestyle adjustments that stop me sliding too far (touch wood…)
Regarding the bit of your post that I’ve highlighted, my situation is the reverse of yours, Smiler.
Back in the late 70s, when I was a young man in my early 20s, a combination of events – breakup of a relationship, death of a close family member, serious illness of another, stress at work, sleep deprivation caused by working night shifts, general existential angst – led to me suffering a mental collapse.
Even though I had a vague idea of clinical depression – my grandfather had shot himself whilst suffering from it many years previously – what I was experiencing felt NOTHING LIKE the ‘ordinary’ depression that I had experienced up till then on Monday mornings or on Saturday evenings when Saints lost. No, what I was suffering was something so frightening, so disorientating and so disturbing that I felt no one else could possibly have experienced it; that I was suffering alone; and that no one or no thing could help me.
Perhaps I wouldn’t have felt that way if there had been more awareness of mental illness at the time; if the prevailing attitude towards it hadn’t have been so negative and so cynical; if the stigma hadn’t have been so large. Perhaps, then, I would have been less reluctant to seek the professional help that I so obviously needed. Perhaps my long road to recovery would have been shorter and less arduous.
In short, if I could turn the clock back forty years, I would seek whatever professional help was available, including mediation.
I have nothing profound to add to this conversation but…
I was in a seminar at university when a Professor of Primate Morphology (of all people) said, seemingly apropos of nothing, ‘if any of you feel depressed, don’t live in silence and don’t be afraid to take medication, get it treated’. Always stayed with me that comment. It always felt like a particularly brave thing to say to a small group of, admittedly much younger and less experienced, strangers.
One of the side-effects is that (whilst everything else is rocking and rolling downstairs) - it takes absolutely ages to cum when wanking or having sex - so its definitely doing *something* in terms of having a chemical effect.
There is a report by BBC health reporter Alex Therrien today saying that a major study finds that anti-depressants work. The study analysed data from 522 trials involving 116,477 people and found that 21 common anti-depressants were all more effective at reducing symptoms of acute depression than placebos.
There were 64.7 millions prescriptions for the drugs in England in 2016 - more than double the 31 million in 2006. It would appear that either we are becoming more depressed as a nation, or more people are seeking help.
Seems to mention a couple of times that Therapy is proven as effective as drugs. But then ignores that aspect completely and concludes that we need more drugs.
I suppose there is more profit in drugs though to be fair.
Cynical me always likes to look for conflict of interest in articles like this, to see if they were funded by pharmaceutical companies etc, this study was funded by the ‘National Institute for Health Research Oxford Health Biomedical Research Centre and the Japan Society for the Promotion of Science.’
From my understanding biomedical model research purely looks at scientific cause and effect on the body, e.g. blood test results, medical imaging etc for validation of results etc, rather than looking at holistic or alternative therapy. So not surprising or suspicious that they have seemingly ignored the benefits of a therapeutic approach or a combination of therapy + meds.
The thing about drugs compared to therapy is that generally, the drugs give you that “quick fix” to keep you going. Certainly not instant, but normally you start to see some benefits within a week if they get the medication right!).
Therapy might take weeks or months before the issues can surface and try to be resolved. Of course therapy can’t fix every problem. Horses for courses. Do whatever it takes to try and get back on to some sort of even keel.
On closer inspection some of the authors have received funding from big pharmaceutical companies:
Declaration of interests
ACi is supported by the National Institute for Health Research (NIHR) Oxford Cognitive Health Clinical Research Facility. TAF has received lecture fees from Eli Lilly, Janssen, Meiji, Mitsubishi-Tanabe, Merck Sharp & Dohme, and Pfizer; consultancy fees from Takeda Science Foundation; and research support from Mochida and Mitsubishi-Tanabe. SL has received honoraria for consulting from LB Pharma, Lundbeck, Otsuka, TEVA, Geodon Richter, Recordati, LTS Lohmann, and Boehringer Ingelheim; and for lectures from Janssen, Lilly, Lundbeck, Otsuka, SanofiAventis, and Servier. NT has received lecture fees from Otsuka and Meiji. YH has received lecture fees from Yoshitomi. JRG is an NIHR Senior Investigator. All other authors declare no competing interests.
there is going to be a huge uptick in depression / stress amongst the young - I am already seeing it at work with more cases in the last 6 months amonst the under 24s than we have had in 20 years of business. What has changed? IMO social media - they are the cigarette companies of today.
Couple of quick comments on that study from someone who works in this space - @gavstar Most published reaserch on pharmaceuticals is based on PharmaCompany funded research - they are afterall the biggest funders of medical reserach. The key is always to check where the data is published - whether its a top peer reviewed journal such as new England Journal of Medicine or the Lancet etc. Most journals (and there are many) will have an independent peer review process to check the quality of the study and signs of mis represenation of the data or poor/over favourable interpretation. etc. but quality of editorial boards does vary… but generally if published in a peer reviewed its at least good science, even if funded by Pharma.
This study was a ‘meta analysis’ something that is hardly ever funded by Pharma since it looks for direct comparisons between products - they are good as a general review, but also have also have limitations, since by necessity they compare data from different studies , which have different inclusion and exclusion criteria, different protocols etc so they are comparing data from different patient populations using different methods which makes analysis much more trickey to get statistically significant… but from what I ahve read on this study, its a fair outcome and a fair result.
@bearsy and @smiler , I aim of the study was not to compare with psychological therapy. Its something that is often misunderstood - The objective was to establish whether drugs work better than placebo - not which type or combination of therapeutic options would be best for patients - something which could not be done through this kind of metaanalysis - it would be VERY BAD science to compare results from different interventions in this way. We also need to be clear that ‘alternative therapies’ are not the same as established clinical psychological therapy given by Psychiatrists. ‘Alternatives’ in the ‘traditional sense’ can be complementary if someone really wants to put chrsytals on their head, but pose a real danger if considered to be sufficient on their own…
But, proper clinical psychological therapy is acknowledged by the study as being very effective in some cases AND how important it is that its ideally combined with pharmacological interventions. For me the saddest part is that is adds ‘where these are available’ as that is unfortunately the reality - in many areas access to this therapy is very limited in the public health system and many patients who would benefit from this only get the medication and nothing else.
Social media. Brexit. House prices. Materialism. Stagnant music industry. Politics. Overcrowding (roads, cities, towns). Crap public transport. Petrol prices. Unrealistic expectations. Dying planet.
I read somewhere that we absorb more information in a day than an average person in the Middle Ages did in a lifetime. As a species we have probably hit overload. When I was a kid there was no such thing as road rage. You dont just see it on the roads now, you see it in car parks! The human nervous system can only take so much stress (some more than others,granted, but everyone has a limit).
. Perhaps you have to have personally suffered from clinical depression or some other ‘invisible’ mental illness like depersonalization disorder in order to understand why it is so offensive; but, if that is the case, then, frankly, it’s pretty disappointing in this day and age. The title also misrepresents what Rogan is saying.