Hillsborough

Football
102

Fair enough. I dont and never will consider the fans at fault for this tragedy. Yes, I was taken in by media for the first year or so, but as more evidence came to light it quickly became clear that this was wrong. However,I do find it strange that as individuals we dont all look at ourselves and consider our own behaviours in these situatiosns and the risks that come with them. I know that as a 20 something, I would have been down there without evening considering it an issue… with benefit of hindsight, I would now consider it dangerous.

All I want is for folks to be safe. Acknowledge that you can not always rely on system and procedures that are designed to Minimise risks, but can not elliminate them completely so those in crowds need to consider this and take repsonsibility because no system or people are fail safe.

I can understand why some might think this is insensitive or a round about way of insuating blame, but it is not. I do however, believe that given the learnings of the past we do need to take more responibilty for our own safety and not rely solely on systems that have failed in the past, and may sadly fail again in future.

3 Likes
103

Originally posted by Gay Abandon

just base my opinion on how I would have behaved, and how I would behave differently now, with benefit of hindsight and more aware of the risks…

I can understand why some might think this is insensitive or a round about way of insuating blame, but it is not.

See this is kind of the point really my friend.

With the best will in the world on your part, to be a good well behaved supporter, and aware of the dangers…

if the police force in charge of managing crowd control at the match you are attending completely fuck everything up so badly due to ignorance, arrogance, and utterly piss poor planning – and let a massive tidalwave of humanity through unchecked into a bottleneck of which you are right at the front by the turnstiles – for all your good intentions, what good would it be when you’re being utterly overrun with thousands of fans descending and crushing you against the walls?

When they suddenly let you through the gate, and the immense weight and pressure of all those thousands of people are pushing against you, there is only one way you are going to go. Straight forwards, into the tunnel right in front of you – as the sheer force from behind relentlessly presses you onward.

Nothing you could do to stop it.

Originally posted by Gay Abandon

I do however, believe that given the learnings of the past we do need to take more responibilty for our own safety and not rely solely on systems that have failed in the past, and may sadly fail again in future.

It is admirable that you wish to learn from past mistakes and help prevent their future repeat, and you can go so far in looking out for yourself…

but again, if you find yourself trapped in that same Hillsborough scenario, and the police supposed to be managing the crowd completely abandon their duties and leave you all to fend for yourselves, that knowledge you’ve acquired may save you and those you’re with if you notice the impending danger and react quickly enough to avoid being forced into the bottleneck…

but all the rest are still going down.

There would have been nothing more you could have done. Sure – you could try to get an urgent message to the Police Controller in charge…

but… if he is an arrogant cunt who thinks he knows best, and we’re all going to do things “his way” now, and completely ignores all advice to the contrary…

sadly you’d still be fucked.

4 Likes
104

Especially when the man in control decided that because injured people were spilling onto the pitch, instead of calling for ambulances he called for dog vans…

And as spectators tried to carry the injured and dying to get urgent medical help, on his instruction their path was blocked with a line of officers, arms linked.

The only worse course of action would be to lie about it for twenty six years, blaming the dead and the survivors.

6 Likes
105

Is it just me being a cynical cnut or has the whole Red Ken anti-semitism storm in a tea cup exploded at the exact moment the media, should have been asking who in high places (Maggie’s crew) helped in the cover up & media abuse of Liverpool fans?

106

And add to that the collusion that meant that the original inquest had a time of death cut off point at 15.15 when it’s clear that over 40 people would have survived if the officer in charge had declared a major emergency and that they were alive or revivable after that time.

1 Like
107

And add to that the collusion that meant that the original inquest had a time of death cut off point at 15.15 when it’s clear that over 40 people would have survived if the officer in charge had declared a major emergency and that they were alive or revivable after that time.

108

But if you didnt read The Observer and it wasnt on TV then you would continue in blissful ignorance would you not? In those days there was no internet and no social media so unless you went looking specifically you would have been none the wiser for years. It was so much easier to spin the news back then.

1 Like
109

But if you didnt read The Observer and it wasnt on TV then you would continue in blissful ignorance would you not? In those days there was no internet and no social media so unless you went looking specifically you would have been none the wiser for years. It was so much easier to spin the news back then.

4 Likes
110

But that’s not true for all of those 27 years. By the early 90s it was obvious to anyone who looked that it was a lie and a cover up. As I’ve said, the narrative started by SYP suited the prejudices of many and thus became the truth and now those who believed it are looking like fools and don’t like it much. The thread on TSW being a perfect example.

3 Likes
111

I am sure you are right and I am sure there are many people who were looking and who saw the truth of the situation earlier. I didnt look, not because it suited any prejudices that I had, I just had other things going on in my life in the 90s and this wasnt on my radar until much later. I agree that there are people who wanted the police version of what happened to be true, but not everyone who didnt go looking for the truth can be tarred with the same brush. I really cant remember what I even thought about the press coverage at the time, other than revulsion at The Sun’s front page which even then, before more info came out, seemed wrong. I hope this ends the career of Kelvin McKenzie, but sadly it probably wont.

1 Like
112

I have to say, I was far too young and too removed to understand what was really happening at the time. I was fourteen, hadn’t really experienced anyone dying and didn’t know much about the city. A kid’s mind processing some bloody harrowing events.

The first chat with ms pap really did it for me. Just her description of what the city centre was like is harrowing enough. For the first few days, it was empty. When they did the minute’s silence on Church Street, the missus reckoned it was like time just stopping. The only audible sound in a crowd of thousands were a few babies crying. Most schools had someone who was bereaved. People queued for hours just to lay wreaths at Anfield. The respect, solemnity and compassion comes through her account like nothing else.

As Flahute says, it’s not like this information was never available. The accounts put out by the authorities were disputed immediately by those that were there, and reported on by some of the newspapers of the day. The authorities got to tell the story, and an entire city got thrown under the figurative bus. I arrived here in '94, so feelings were still very raw.

Again, as Flahute says, it was the cover up that was the real problem. Many of the families have gone on record to state that if people had been honest at the time, they could have lived with it. The authorities weren’t even honest after Duckenfield had left the post. The same old lies were parroted by the new boss, including the theft from the dead, etc, which is why he no longer has a job.

Nowt could be done while the deliberations were ongoing. David Conn is on this week’s Football Weekly Extra. He has worked the case for 20 years, and just the brief summary he gives of his experiences should make you angry that this was ever allowed to happen.

3 Likes
113

I drove up to Anfield to lay flowers at the Kop along with a couple of mates of mine. It could have been us on that terrace, any of us.

Ever since that day I followed every twist and turn as from the outset it was clearly a massive cover up. Families had to endure smear campaigns and sleepless nights. Now, I hope, those still alive responsible for the cover up and laying awake at night awaiting the 6 o’clock knock.

5 Likes
114

Behind all the cover-ups and lies there are rank and file oficers who stood there behind the goal and watched people die.

That annoyed me 27 years ago, and I still can’t understand why they did nothing when they could see with their own eyes what was happening.

3 Likes
115

Liverpool Manger asks fans to travel to Europa league final without tickets

‘It is even worth going there without having a ticket for the game to be around the stadium and enjoy yourself and enjoy life as a Liverpool supporter and that’s what we should so and not worry or think about the size of the stadium or tickets you can get.’"

116

This bloke can’t let it go, obviously.

Turfed out of a pub in Worcester last night for wearing the shirt, getting dogs abuse on Twitter now that people have found out who he is.

What a nasty man.

1 Like
117

Vile lowest of the low ‘human’ being!

118

Probably an exaggeration, but you have to wonder what sort of moron gets a bespoke T-Shirt like that to wear in public. I cannot imagine for one second what good things might come from wearing it.

119

Seriously, over exaggeration. He has thought this through, very premeditated. Probably had to buy the tee, get it printed and even after receiving it, put it on and thought, yes that is funny, then left the house for the pub! Seriously a little unhinged.

It does look like he is there with family (just a guess with the pink kids bag on the bench), but did none of these say, what the fuck you wearing?

It is in Worcester, so probably a Man U fan!

120

He seems to be taking trolling off the Internet and onto his back.

121