Not just political slogans or symbols Chutters but “political, religious or commercial messages.”
Mind you, didnt they join in with the “Kick Racism Out Of Football” campaign which you could argue was a tad political!
I’m sort of torn on this, I absolutely think we should remember the dead, from all sides, and if a series of football matches can raise the awareness of the sheer stupidity of war then it is good.
However we now live in a world where we’re scared of upsetting someone so FIFA are taking the safe route.
I read yesterday that a Northern Ireland player won’t wear the poppy because of the Bloody Sunday massacre, his choice, no-one if orcing anyone to wear/buy the poppy if they don’t want to.
For mine the poppy is more about the First and Second World wars.
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As I said in my first post, FIFA is a world organisation. The poppy is largely a British celebration. A number of former colonial possessions also follow the practice, but it’s not used by the Americans anymore, It’s very much a British Empire thing, commemorating British Empire dead.
If this was a universally accepted symbol, there probably wouldn’t be an issue, but it isn’t. The only countries that adopted it were the victors of World War I.
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Immaterial…if the Germans chose some object to commemorate their war dead do you think the British would complain? It commemorates the victims of war not the perpetrators of war…by that token should be globally embraced.
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Bit disingenuous that one Pap, the Poppy was used after the First World war to commerate ALL the dead in that war. As you are well aware the poppy was chosen because it grew in large numbers on the battlefields of the First World War.
It’s not just Brits, Australians, New Zealanders, Americans, Indians, Nepalese etc that are remembered but also the Germans, French, Italians, Spanish.
Yes the UK is the main wearer of the Poppy but that doesn’t mean the symbolism should be cast asunder because of it’s Imperialistic links.
Don’t forget that the Poppy is also supposed to symbolise the non-combatants that died in the 2 wars.
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The poppy came about because of the war poem, In Flanders’ Fields. Perhaps when it first came out, those Allies wracked by the horrors of war spared thoughts for those on the other side. However, those on the other side chose not to use the poppy. If it’s such the universal symbol it’s being posited as, you’d think there would be some take up elsewhere. Try finding a country that remembers its dead in this way that we haven’t been involved it that still practices it. I couldn’t.
Contrary to LiTSL’s assertion, I think British people might get upset if the German started commemorating their war dead with a symbol of their own choosing. Probably not as upset as the neighbouring countries that still have a living memory of the Second World War, but I could see a few getting miffed. Depending on the symbol used, there could well be uproar.
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Originally posted by @pap
Contrary to LiTSL’s assertion, I think British people might get upset if the German started commemorating their war dead with a symbol of their own choosing. Probably not as upset as the neighbouring countries that still have a living memory of the Second World War, but I could see a few getting miffed. Depending on the symbol used, there could well be uproar.
Only The Sun and Daily Mail reader would get upset.
I think the relationship between Germany and her neighbours is excellent in my experience…particularly my generation and younger. The emnity of those who took part against and suffered at the hands of the Nazis are rapidly disappearing…if they transmitted that emnity to their offspring it’s, in my view, largely failed. The younger people of mainland Europe seem to have a common bond which comes from daily interaction…a better understanding of each other.
To a certain extent the British don’t have that bond because of our physical detatchment…we still see other European nations sterotypically.
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Pap you absolute whopper its not celebration its remembrance.
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Fair enough Bazza, that was a poor word choice.
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I dunno Pap, being an Army brat I’ve been to a fair few rememberance services abroad (read :- in occupied countries) and the non-allies that have been at the same ceremonies have always worn poppies.
I believe that if you switch on the TV and watch the Cenotaph parades you’ll see most foreign dignataries wearing poppies.
Maybe it is only a British thing to remember the wasted lives with Poppies but that doesn’t make it a political symbol. It’s not a religious symbol for sure!
Originally posted by @BTripz
Maybe it is only a British thing to remember the wasted lives with Poppies but that doesn’t make it a political symbol. It’s not a religious symbol for sure!
It didn’t start out a religious symbol for sure. Originally they was using poppies to produce opiums to support our Brave Lads in killing germans etc (That is also why poppies is generally associated with Heroines), and then when the war ended they didn’t need so much opiums so they had a lot of poppies left over, so everyone was like, let’s just wear them as decoration, because if you look back in old photos a lot of clothes at the time was otherwise quite drab.
Over time tho there is more to poppies than just getting high and killing germans, they’re more paper and plastic now, and setting fire and smoking them doesn’t create any sense of euphoria, anymore, it more makes you feel sick and sad and that is why it makes you Remember.
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What would the Germans wear? A U Boat, a Tiger Tank or City pin badges from where they invaded, a Prague or Calais one for example? The Japanese a comfort girl badge or soil samples from Machuria?
It has to be the Germans now control Europe economically, did others intervene when they bullied Greece?
what if the Irish wanted to remember all the fallen IRA members? What if the Saudis decided to have a symbol to remember the chaps who flew into the twin towers? Should South Africa remember ANC members who died for the cause, after all, some people considered them terrorists?
lets just forget everyone then no one can argue or be offended. Lest we remember.
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Which speaks to the likely offence. Couldn’t imagine the Polish being too happy about the Nazi war dead. Chinese would be narked if the Japanese asked for its war dead to be commemorated.
People always look to the Polish for German injustice and there was hugely but I suggest people look to what the Polish did to the Czechs in 38, they gave the moral imperetive to the Germans, the Czechs not the Poles were the first after Germany to be subjugated.
The Japanese have the Yaksukuni Stone, which has caused more than enough controversy, now if our sandal wearing ot on here would care to comment on the Japanese are their racial policies and then to ours then they’ll see we are pretty good.
agree with barry, poppy’s aren’t too bad, but I wouldn’t want to weigh our players down with japanese stones.
This post made my eyes bleed.
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Ninety eight years after the conclusion of the Great War, the war to end all wars, we’re still at war. We haven’t really stopped. After the horror of the Great War, no-one wanted to see another. For the first time ever, the world had a supra-national body designed to prevent such an reoccurrence. In the context of the times, the poppies were there to remember those wronged in an utterly wasteful conflict, but also with a solemn expectation that it wouldn’t happen again.
Today, poppies are tied up with our modern conflicts. They’re not just about those that made the ultimate sacrifice in wars where we are defending against an existential threat. They commemorate those that have fallen in Afghanistan and Iraq, wars of aggression and expansion. I have every sympathy for those people and their families, but can never agree with the reasons for sending them there. I still maintain the respectful silence, but I won’t wear a poppy anymore.
We dishonour the fallen in the World Wars by deliberately conflating their sacrifice with modern losses. Blair dishonoured and betrayed our recent dead by putting them into harm’s way on a lie and a Presidential edict. When you consider the original motivation behind the poppy, and the underlying feeling about war at the time, the symbol itself has been dishonoured with less than honourable military conduct by British forces and governments.
I am honestly surprised that people are surprised that FIFA refused to sanction it.
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Nothing to worry about, apparently. Even May has joined in(very diplomatically, of course).