Doctors vote to strike for first time in history of NHS

Reasonably serious discussion
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Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint

Do you know what, don’t bother replying. I think I’m done.

What have you done?

Unfortunately the site has become one that if you have any sort of dissenting argument against the lefty lean of the site then you’re not allowed an opinion, and what you’re saying must be wrong.

No-one has denied you an opinion. What has happened is that people have disagreed with you, and they’ve used their own direct experience to do that. You have repeatedly claimed that the BMA is lying, based on some half-remembered recollection of a Radio 5 interview.

Even if you bother to produce that (but why bother, eh? who needs evidence in any argument?) I could trump that with tens of thousands of competing opinions ( save me some bother and search the #juniordoctors hashtag, yeah? ).

It’s a shame but there can be no balance when the most prolific poster will not accept anything other than their own opinions, and any argument is frittered away as a desperate attempt to justify a right wing agenda (not sure when was the last time I actually defended the Conservatives, but it certainly hasn’t happened but something I get automatically accused of when people cant counter my points/questions).

Have you actually read any of your own input on this thread? You start out by agreeing with the strike, and then weigh in, after presumably recovering from your Damascean revelation that this crop of Tories are a bunch of horrible cunts, with the complete opposite opinion.

What’s changed your mind? Three doctors with different viewpoints on Radio5, who rather coincidentally, all happen to be parroting the government’s line about the mendacity of the BMA.

So I think I’m going to leave you all wanking each other off in your anti-capitalist socialist utopia.

Probably a good idea if that’s how you see this place. I’m sure the rest of the forum appreciates you having a go at them because you’ve disagreed with me. Nice.

C’est la vie.

Oddly enough, what’ll be lost if Jeremy Hunt gets his way.

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You’re talking shit again. Go through the Tories in Trouble thread and read the repeated arguments myself and KRG have had on there in relation to this. I don’t have time to search for that shit, but please do yourself, and educate yourself as to why my opinion changed (ie I read the BMA’s literature and the contract, and they didn’t add up).

I’ve posted the link and time so you can listen to that.

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Deep breath Cherts :lou_wink_2:

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Fuck me, I’m surprised they didn’t go all scabby and drag you in for emergency treatment.

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Originally posted by @pap

1080×1080 166 KB

Good to see Ringo Starr supporting the NHS

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Thomas was in the egine shed pulling off Edward…

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Thanks for the support Pap.

It does genuinely have nothing to do with pay, either belive that or don’t , but from the inside I can tell you it isn’t.

If the government unilaterlly impose contracts on the juniors the nurses/hcas/oda’s will be next then the senior clinicians.

The bigger picture is very clear to those of us working in it, the end of the NHS is written on the wall and the people manipulating the politics all have a huge vested interest in a private medical future.

Its very sad ; the NHS only survives at the moment by the good will of those working in it. If we all worked to rule it would fall over in a day - ask anyone who works at any level in the hospital/community. When it is gone, remember what we had.

there simply aren’t enough staff to cover both emergencies and do full elective stuff 7 days a week. If he wants that we need a massive investment in quality staff. End of.

Sorry, tried not to get sucked in but I can’t help myself - I shall piss off now

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Top post, 'kin spot on.

If I may also add, Theresa May’s proposed law of shipping off immigrants if they do not earn £35k+ p/a would also have the NHS on its knees.

Well, perhaps more so than it sadly is at present.

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So Thursday evening comes and nothing has changed - what next? The government is not going to throw its hand in and nor is the BMA,

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Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint

You’re talking shit again. Go through the Tories in Trouble thread and read the repeated arguments myself and KRG have had on there in relation to this. I don’t have time to search for that shit ,

Indeed. You’re in the process of burying yourself, quite literally with the avatar change.

but please do yourself, and educate yourself as to why my opinion changed (ie I read the BMA’s literature and the contract, and they didn’t add up).

I’ve posted the link and time so you can listen to that.

Thanks for posting that.

For those that can’t be arsed listening, the piece begins with Jeremy Hunt lying his fucking arse off and trying to blame junior doctors for the 150,000 people his decisions have placed in jeopardy.

The programme then features a statement from someone saying that the way the doctors are handling this contract is like pouring petrol on a fire. It then speaks of the increased risk to people.

The programme erroneously states that there will be no emergency care when the strikes are on.

BMA mentions.

#1 (health correspondent) The BMA won’t negotiate with the government while the threat of imposition is in place.

Doctor #1 is Dr Adam Dalby. You can read his thoughts on the dispute here in the Torygraph.

Doctor #2 is Dr James Timms. He is in support of the strike. His thoughts are here.

Doctor #3 is Dr Janis Burns. You can read her thoughts on the dispute here.

The strongest criticism comes from Dalby, who reckons the BMA are producing propaganda, and the furthest he feels able to go is say that it is misleading, in his opinion. He stops short of calling them liars. He moans about their initial literature, saying that the 30% pay cut was incorrect (but he acknowledges that the BMA changed that themselves). “That was the main thing that made me change [my mind]”.

So basically, the BMA printed something, retracted it, but he’s still unhappy about it! Then he speaks of the “helpfulness” of the contract. He’s not impressive. I invite people to listen.

Timms reckons both sides have produced “misleading information”, which is hardly supportive of all three doctors being against the BMA.

Burns blames Jeremy Hunt for politicising the affair and trying to blame the BMA, and also states the contract negotiations began well before the general election.

She points out that the negotiations between the government and the BMA aren’t known, even to them. More than one of the doctors remarks that they’re almost as much in the dark as the public.

It’s a good listen. I recommend it to anyone, but for the love of the fucking NHS, please take more away from it than “three fucking doctors said the BMA are lying”.

That’s not what happened at all.

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In his speech yesterday , he let slip about ‘diagnostics’ etc at the weekend.

Which already happens and has happened for as long as I’ve worked in the NHS anyway. It was the first sign that he may try and move a bit on what is expected at weekends. It was buried , but it was in there.

If he imposes it, it will break the NHS, end of. For the record they have form - the GP contract that has been touted as making all of us filthy rich for the last 10 years was imposed on us as well. yes we voted for it but the choices were ‘vote for it or the next contract will be significantly worse’. I swear that is true. The reason we got any sort of pay increase was becase the government massively underestimated how much work we do. However that has been spun so much over the years people now genuinely belive that we negotiated and pushed it through - neither of which is true.

In my heart I suspect Hunt is a stalking horse - they are seeing how much he can get away with, he still seems to cut a fairly solitary figure at th emoment so would be easy to alienate should they feel they aren’t going to win in total.

Very interesting to see the media outlets, not sure I’ll trust anything many of them say ever again

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Originally posted by @Sussexsaint

Very interesting to see the media outlets, not sure I’ll trust anything many of them say ever again

Was chatting to a junior doctor called Callum on the picket line today. Had a very similar conversation with him. The interesting thing about becoming an expert in anything is finding out just how much bollocks the general press gets away with when reporting on your field of expertise.

When it’s just some no-nothing yammering on about the best computer to buy, that’s one thing. When people’s lives are being placed in danger by the collective organ supposedly responsible for safeguarding the free flow of information, we’re in real trouble.

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Sussex, the BMA have been considering an indefinate walk out and mass trainee resignations amongst other options(including rolling over, to be fair) - Given that you are closer to the subject matter than anyone on here, how far do you think the juniors will folow the BMA if they start to recommend some of the more nuclear options above.

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The Canary covering the press angle. Social media kicking MSM’s arse on the issue.

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/04/26/press-trounce-junior-doctors-social-media-tells-real-story-tweets/

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Sorry if I have missed this elsewhere SS, are you a GP?

One thing I have heard from the gf and the others Jr Dr’s I know when they have been out at strikes or doing “Meet the Doctors” events, is the misunderstanding of what doctors actually earn.

The event she attended was in Bank, one city boy was giving them some grief about how they should get back to work - and that it’s laughable that they are whining about pay when they get so much.

Said city boy was asked how much he thought a GP made, and how much he thought a Jr made. He responded “£150k, and I dunno, about £60-65k”.

When informed of their actual salaries, and the typical hours they work for said salaries he made an about turn. “Bloody hell, you should be striking.”

That’s not to say that the strike is about pay, but I think there is a misconception about what most doctors actually earn. They are by no means on the breadline, but the idea that they are all rolling in it (especially here in London, where even with both of our wages we live in a pokey basement flat and struggle to save anything meaningful towards a deposit) is so far removed from the truth.

Part of me wonders if this disconnect paints some people’s opinion.

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Nice blog post here, summarising some of the positions.

To take an analogy from the business world:

Imagine you own a company. You have a supplier. The supplier is meeting all their contractual obligations. You unilaterally inform the supplier that you want to renegotiate the contract to procure more items at a lower unit cost. The supplier refuses and stops supplying you. You tell the supplier that the item they supply is too valuable for it not to be supplied and that they must agree to the new contract. Despite having skills that are in high demand all over the world, the supplier inexplicably goes against their personal interest and agrees to work at the reduced rate.

_ _That’s what the government wants us to believe should happen with the Junior Doctors.

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I geninely think the nuclear options are a possibility. Whatever people may think of us docs, genuinely and honestly everyone I have ever met has the patients best interest at heart and that comes absolutely first and foremost. Secondary to that is belief in the NHS as an entity - everyone who works in it believes in its founding principles and is rightly rpoud of their role in its delivery. The fact is, everyone goes the extra mile - day in , day out to make sure that service is delivered as best it can be. As such it takes over our lives

( Aside) I remember my brother saying once that he couldn’t understand why the nurse who got pranked by Aussie radio about Kate Middletons morning sickness killed herself, he just saw it as another job and she should have just worked in Tescos or something. Anyone who works in healthcare would have understood that to that nurse it was who she was. It isn’t 'just a job. It can’t be , nobody would do this shit for the money we get.

So thats why its not about pay , its about what it fundamentally means - the contracts are a clear statement that the government is trying to break the service so they can say ‘look its broken’ lets get private companies in to fix it.

They have done it time and again with other industries.

When they have brought in private companies into the NHS its been appauling. Virgin run our MSK service locally and its beyond shit. The local ambulance service ‘lost’ the contract for patient transport (!!) and it was gioven to a company in hampshire who ( I shit you not) 48 hours prior to starting had no vehicles or places to park them. Since they have taken over on 1st April they have tuend up for 20% of the runs they needed to do - which will cost the public purse far far more than any savings they made with the initial contract.

Targeting the juniors is cynical - its a way of getting to the specialists and general practice - won’t botehr going into detail but it will provke a sea change in 5 years or less

Apologies for the rant - you can of course choose to believe or not. Its been a shit day and hearing respectable news outlets spouting lies is deeply demoralising .

I fucking love my job and feel very privilaged and proud to be able to do it. I just hope I’ll still be able to for the rest of my working life

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Yes mate I am - I don’t usually tell people because they act a bit werd about it - like telling somone you are a priest or something.

Government tell people I earn ‘up to 200k’ which is bollocks. Monies recieved into the practice have to pay for heat , light , staff, nurses, dressings etc etc etc etc any any left gets divided up.

I earn about 65k so I’m not pleading poverty - however 10k of that is then spent on my insurance and another 2k in professional fees

At the moment I’m working 14 hours a day 6 days a week and I think , considering the level of responsibility I take, that I’m pretty decent value for money all things considered - a similarly educated lawyer wouldn’t break wind for my hourly rate.

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This piece on the Canary reckons that Hunt’s real target in all of this are the unions.

I’d go along with that, especially given the approach taken to the BMA. It’s potentially a re-run of the union bashing of the 1980s. If that’s the case, I think he has demonstrated both a spectacularly bad target and especially poor timing.

Unlike the 1980s, the unions cannot be blamed for the overall problems that we find ourselves in, so if Hunt is hoping to paint them as the source of all our woes, he’ll have a job. Second, doctors aren’t miners. Without meaning anything derogatory about the humble and noble mining industry, it is essentially an industry based on vicinity to mineable materials. People knew they derived some benefit from the industry of the miners, but unless you had a coal fire in the 1980s, it was fairly indirect.

Doctors are all over the country, most people have had direct experience with them and the vast majority of that contact has been positive. They deliver our babies, and fix us or their loved ones. They do cool shit and we know it. Sussex’ account here gives us some much welcomed personal perspective, but his industrial exploits, impressive as they are, will probably shock no-one in truth.

No one except the very rich want the NHS to go. This is a Sticking Point for the British people. Hunt has picked the wrong target, for the wrong reasons, in the wrong political context. He reckons that this’ll be his last big job in politics. If he succeeds in his plan to privatise the NHS, he’d better have some cash stashed offshore, because that is exactly where he’ll need to be.

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/04/26/jeremy-hunt-just-betrayed-real-reason-hes-going-junior-doctors/

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Appreciate the response

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