And here come all of the bullshit from the EU countries trying to get last minute concessions
What is the chances of Greece trying to renegotiate their bailouts on the 26th March?
I suppose on the upside all the talk from the EU and Barnier that the current “deal” cannot be changed is also horseshit
I thought there was clarity on the Gibraltar situation they voted to remain part of the UK.
Just the Spanish throwing another spanner in the works.
May be if we threaten to recognise Catalonia as an independent state they will STFU
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We should also offer favourable trade deals to any countries should they leave the EU at a future date. That’ll piss them off.
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Hi CB
I was wanting to ask what is your main driver on the Brexit thing? I ask because what I do struggle with is why has to become this big ‘them and us’ battle. OK so we know that the EU does not want us to leave, because without us, the balance shifts from a Northern European power base to a southern/eastern - with greater influence from the newer states.
With exception of those for whom its all a hard brexit and nothing else (It cant have escaped anyones notice that those who advocate this most, are those with plenty of options to retain income and business with the EU irrespective of what it might mean for the average man on the street)
For me, its not based on ideology. I have no desperation for sovereignty because its a ‘myth’ in a global economy… we will inevitably be even more beholden in our foreign and economic policy to some other powers, most likely the US. Whilst not officially tied as with the EU, the impact will be felt no less.
I also feel that there remains a great deal of misinformation on the immigration issue… especially in terms of impact on overall wage inflation, resource allocation and access to employment. Its an issue that needed to be addressed and solutions found, but I suspect that politically the will to do this was always undermined by those seeking Brexit on the right, and those too frightened of being labelled as bigots on the left.
Ultimately, surely, we should now be doing everything we can to ensure the deal is going deliver what is best for the UK, even if it means compromise to those who feel its hard or nothing. I really to believe that for many that voted Brexit and that did so on issues such as immigration etc, compromise in other areas would not be such a big deal and something they could live with… and why a public vote on the deal (not a new Brexit question) would see a more positive outcome, and its why the politicians seem now reluctant to offer it to us…
Uhmmm… we need to get some ourselves first… not seen any real action or indication of what might be possible form the Brexit political champions on this at all… If it was not so worrying, I would be sitting down with the pop-corn to watch us try and negotiate a deal with Clown Trump… and getting bent over a barrel and shafted sideways…
I know I’m not @CB-Saint, but it was them and us the moment the result came in.
Cast your mind back to that fateful day, and we had people on here claiming that they were losing money now, blaming folk on this site for the way they voted in relation to their money loss.
Cast your mind back before the vote, and there was never any discussion about hard or soft Brexit. Boris Johnson’s notion that if we voted no, we’d get a second vote, was utterly ridiculed. Now it’s all the anti-democrats are after.
My problems with the EU were on a number of areas
Immigration
First of all, I am not a racist - far from it, I have a business employing 20 + nationalities around the world. I think immigration is a great thing. The idea of bringing in people from other countries who have skills we need is brilliant and absolutely vital.
I do have a problem with unrestricted immigration which benefits the unskilled / low skilled or enables higher skilled migrants from low income economies to come to Britain to do these jobs. This does IMO have a deflationary effect on wages at that end of the market - it is something I have seen first hand. I wont go into the fact that we were also taking on board 500k migrants a year and its impact on housing and public services particularly during a period where we were having to tighten our belts due to the fallout of the finance crisis
Another indirect impact of this is that the government have had to look like they were on top of immigration and as a result they restricted visas to skilled migrants because they could do nothing about the EU unskilled migrants - so we restrict the flow of the very people we need to help our economy.
Governance
@pap has made a number of points which I agree with on the structure of the EU and its accountability (or lack thereof). How would Juncker ever hold the highest office anywhere if he had to rely on elections?
Direction
The EU will become The federal states of Europe - that is the game plan and always has been. They have got to where they are by taking small steps each generation and will continue to do so until they reach that objective. EU foreign office has been established. EU army next.
Had there been a cast iron guarantee that no further changes would ever be made, that may have been helpful to accepting a remain vote, but it wasn’t an option and never will be. You only have to look at the contempt in which the EU regarded Cameron’s attempt to get some concessions to see that.
Had the EU remained the EEC then I had would have voted remain.
It will always be about them and us - its a negotiation. If you want compromise, then both parties have to be willing and I have seen very little from the EU side - hence that document that May is bandying about.
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From what I can tell, the ‘them and us’ comment is in relation to the UK and the EU, not Brexiteers and Remainers.
So what are your thoughts about the fact that we are replacing those currently leaving and going back to the EU, with immigration from outside the EU? Are you happier to see people come from outside the EU?
Those from outside the EU have to demonstrate that they have skills that we need (unless they are students) - we also have control
Lets take nursing - we have a shortage of nurses compounded by EU nurses not coming over here. So we look to attract more nurses from outside of the EU - great, no problem with that.
However if we had sufficient nursing staff, we could stop / reduce the number of visas issued to overseas nurses so that there isn’t a surplus of supply.
I believe at one point that Australia relaxed the immigration rules on hairdressers because they had a shortfall and then tighten it back up once they had sufficient and they own supply had caught up
That is what I want
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I couldn’t give a monkies from which countries they come from - I would rather have the best.
Indeed, and from a long term point of view that does make sense, but I think that is what we continue to use the ex-EU channel for, whilst continuing to allow EU immigrants. We can then re-patriate those who don’t have jobs after 3 months. And then you’ve got to trust that the country are letting the correct, skilled people in:
“Interestingly, (again these are estimates put together by the Migration Advisory Committee in 2014) about 60% of migrants in low-skilled jobs come from non-EU countries: roughly 1.2 million people.”
There is also the fact that the majority of EU Immigrants come over here to do unskilled jobs is actually untrue:
“There is a perception that immigrants are mostly taking unskilled jobs and lowering wages for the domestic population, but the evidence points firmly in the other direction. At Russell Group universities, up to 39% of academic staff are foreign; over 26% of our NHS doctors are non-British; and the heads of many of our leading companies are immigrants, including the chief executives of Jaguar Land Rover (Ralf Speth) and Reckitt Benckiser (Rakesh Kapoor).”
Thanks for taking the time to reply in a measured way. I do have a couple of comments though that may help explain why I am not so worried about the same things - although I appreciate that this is often going to be subjective and opinions may remain divided:
I don’t think you are a racist, I apologise if I have ever given that impression - we should be able to have an informed and open debate about immigration - it needs it as there are issues to be resolved - whether it be economic migrants form within the EU, outside the EU, skilled workers, refugees and asylum seekers etc. Its a complicated issues and you cant have a policy that seeks to address all. I think the problem has been that the real racists and bigots did vote for Brexit for those reasons and it made for uncomfortable debate, fuelled by the passion post ref…
I think this is one of the issues where we will differ, because wage deflation of low and unskilled labour is something that can be controlled where there is a will which would in effect prevent the influx of supply suppressing or reducing wages… It requires better regulation and enforcement, and its often interesting that we never seem to see any expose of the UK companies that seem happy to exploit workers in this way…
… we do already have legislation in place that prevents access to services to those that are not employed and have not paid into the system. I also do not know the figures, but I am not sure 500k a year net influx was correct.
There is also room for a more social view in that if we think we were born here by accident… luck, call it what you will, and others were not so lucky, can we not appreciate the desire for those willing to work bloody hard to better their lot? And that being able to provide opportunity for that is a good thing? There is a lot of published evidence to support what some economists believe that the influx of ‘cheaper’ labour has major long term benefits for the local economy — goes a little like this: Cheap labour in - increased productivity, increased productivity, improved competitiveness = improved success leading to more jobs/increased demand etc - In addition, the local workforce need to upskill to compete = better skilled work force, more competitive etc… my interpretation is a little simplistic, but bigger economic brains do see this as an opportunity… and IMHO its a worthy discussion point when thinking about immigration
I dont think anyone would disagree with the structure of the EU being flawed, but then again so are all political and government institutions - IF we are really honest, are we not more concerned about the decisions made than the process? The impact of legislation, rather than the mechanism for getting there? I know I am. Some of the most hideous legislation comes from our own ‘democratic’ process - so for me, its alway been more about impact than process, but I can appreciate that it might not be the same for all.
The flaws do need resolution, and I doubt any EU supporters don’t agree, and yes the questions remain over how, but I would not be surprised to see reform post Brexit as the EU is ‘shocked’ into action. I also believe it would have been far better had we always been committed and had more direct leadership battling from within… our lack of commitment meant our voice was never truly heard or trusted.
This is perhaps the most difficult one. Where I tend to get a bit more philosophical about it all - My background is evolutionary biology, so I tend to have a bit of a skewed perspective on time… the reality being that human existence is but a blip in the overall scheme of things and out borders and regions are even less significant a few 100 years old and less in some cases yet we seem a species obsessed with out national ‘identity’, and our own space… those that go on caravan holidays and bring a small plastic picket fence to put around their paid for space are a great metaphor for the British attitude… Its interesting that no one seem to comment on the integration in SciFi series set in the future where its just Earth and a bunch of other planets, because although fiction, we tend not to think in terms of millennia, but it sort of illustrates how borders and nationalities are unlikely to survive as we know them beyond the next couple of hundred years TBH… maybe a bit out there, but I have no issue with integration or armies and nations, federations etc…
… again its about the impact and the outcomes - would we all still be worried about our sense of identify and where decisions are made, sovereignty etc, if we all had great standards of living across the continent?
OK so I digressed a bit, back to reality, is a EU army such a bad thing? cheaper and more cash available for local services, likely to be still aligned with NATO and with clear input from each nation with respect to governance… I am sure our resident ‘Stan’ will start talking bollocks about German imperialism (conveniently forgetting our own - he should watch Blackadder for a history lesson), but Its the integration of Europe that has seen its longest period of peace - as with all these things, prosperity breeds contentment…
I have no illusion about the EU, just that I believe all governmental institutions suffer from the same shit, just on a different scale and its also a great scapegoat to pass on the blame for problems of our own making - Its also been an easy target post global financial crisis.
Time will tell what it really means for the UK… we could all end up rich and happy, with the rest of the EU is shit - with the same social indifference that we show towards poverty stricken nations in Africa today… who knows
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@Map-Of-Tasmania - your children were lucky enough to be born in your home through an accident of birth. Other children are born to less responsible parents.
Is it your duty to look after the children that are not your own? Are you going to let them into your house and deplete the @Map-Of-Tasmania exchequer?
If your answer is no, then I do wonder why the UK has an obligation to preferentially grant access to those from the European Union.
If your answer is yes, and we apply it to the European Union, I have to ask, why don’t you give as much as a fuck about those outside the European Union that are having much harder times of it than your underpaid graduate in Warsaw?
Well you see, I am just a bit confused as this can apply equally to those born in Africa, Europe or even next door to you in the UK, yet your old pal Corby would be advocating that we do all we can to look out for that chap next door if they are having a hard time. Now This country alone cant also look after those in Poland or wherever, but we can as part of a larger and integrated set of nations with such a common goal. Now, don’t get me wrong the EU is far from that right now… bit I always like to think it had possibilities…
Well in a way we kind of have done… certainly common wealth nations etc… after all i suppose we owe them big time for all taht wealth we are LUCKY to process here is pretty much on the back of having exploited a fair bit during our own period of ‘Germanic’ tendency…
Let’s have an answer to the question please, Theresa.
I would like to know if deeds match words.
Do you see it as your responsibility to look after the kids of shit parents?
NO idea, I would ask a socialist as they surely would, after all the children are teh ones in need and they are innocent… Am struggling with your definition of socialism TBH, never thought it included aspects of ethical DailyMail…