Minor point of order. Fuel Inc VAT in Poland is only about 20% more expensive than fuel in UAE and Saudi.
And just over half the UK cost.
VAT is an issue but do not forget the UK Government choose to make UK fuel expensive (and energy costs) by the imposition of DUTY.
In any case with the PSBR (Debt)) so high, anyone who expects VAT to decrease post Brexit must be farming Unicorns
2 Likes
So Brexit is going to lead to deaths of innocent people that need medicines to live. Brexit could conceivably destroy the NHS as they will be unable to do the job needed.
But itâs alright, at least we wonât have them pesky foreigners taking all our fruit picking and hand car wash jobs.
3 Likes
Would it be too much common sense to suggest that the EU and UK government agree that a deal is what we are after, so lets work towards that and fuck the ridiculous deadline? Problem is the hard Brexit cunts have enough influence in the media and in parliament for common sense to be crushed under the weight of the âwill of the peopleâ
1 Like
Ah, but the political value of a hard Brexit is that tgere is no deal.
So. When May is knifed in the back the next day her successor can fvck off to Brussels, come back like Neville Chamberlain and declare he has a deal and will be a hero, no matter how shit it is
So, it looks like it was planned by the lot of them* and austerity was the tool. Hardly surprising if you look at their history.
âAccording to a comprehensive research paper by University of Warwick economics professor Thiemo Fetzer Tory austerity and welfare cuts directly caused Brexit.â
*Donât discount pig fucker and the gidiot, because they said so(professional liars remember) just look at the half arsed job they made of fighting for remain. They are also the instigators of the âbonfire of regulationsâ race to the bottom, which just happens to be the main goal of Brexshit.
4 Likes
[Sorry for the late reply but I started posting this in a tent in Dorset and didnât finish it. Discourse helpfully remembered what I was on aboutâŚ]
Yep, Iâll acknowledge that these things are probably true and that EU has a role in setting them. Not being obstructive with âprobablyâ - I just donât know the details.
Whilst the EU mandates a 15% minimum, I believe the last time our standard rate VAT was that low was in 1991 - since which itâs been 17.5% or 20%.
So whilst I can see that you feel that the EU is forcing a VAT restriction on us, successive governments have already been charging over this. So this hasnât for some time, technically, been a restriction.
Also, the term luxury sounds emotive, but in VAT parlance it simply means non-essential - your point about fuel being classified as luxury is well made - but it does attract VAT at a quarter of the UK standard rate.
Its impact is also alleviated a little by government and energy company concessions. And VAT on vehicle fuel isnât the problem, itâs UK government duty that is the problem. You point as fuel as a luxury good is valid though.
But the whole issue of mandating VAT levels is not out of some sort of vindictive desire to make countries across Europe suffer, itâs probably the only way you can make a good move freely across borders without creating unfair, or race-to-the-bottom conditions.
Having a minimum VAT rate, which as Iâve already suggested hasnât technically had an impact on our Governmentâs position since 1991 - 27 years ago, is part of allowing trade to happen frictionlessly.
I understand the argument that says, âif we leave the EU, we wonât have to implement a minimum VAT rateâ but the corollary of that is that we wonât be able to access free trade across borders in Europe either.
Again, for clarity, I can also understand the argument that goes on to say that âsacrificing free trade with the EU is worth it so we can set our own VAT ratesâ.
But letâs explore that a little further, and letâs start with a clarification on VAT because in this postâŚ
âŚit seems to suggest that the French and German energy companies were in some way benefitting from taxation raised via VAT on fuel.
VAT is a tax collected by business on behalf of the government. It isnât kept by the company collection it, although the VAT it pays to generate its business is offset against the VAT it collects for the government.
So Iâm not sure what the point about French and German companies is here? They would be generating VAT revenues for the UK governement in this instance.
In a post-Brexit, no-deal world, letâs assume that we are free to reduce our VAT rates or even remove VAT completely. That seems to me like it will have two impacts.
Firstly, direct taxation would need to be raised to meet the reduction in government tax income. VAT take will need to be replaced by something else. I guess a UK sales tax could be implemented to make up for the shortfall. And I guess removing VAT and replacing it with a tax that helps the poorest more would be welcome.
Secondly, Iâd expect the EU to slap import tariffs of say, 15% on goods entering the EU from the UK to protect its closed, internal market. I imagine the UK would almost certainly have to mirror or respond to this by slapping import duties of say, 15% for EU goods. If this happened, the result would be prices rising across the board for anything we import from the EU including those things the very poorest in our society might buy.
If the EU didnât do this, weâd be a low-cost means for EU countries to source everything. Itâs the Northern Irish border issue but in reverse.
This is why, as I understand it, Mayâs Brexit whitepaper states we will keep VAT at EU levels - because she wants to maintain the common rulebook and âfrictionlessâ trade.
So whilst it is true to say that the unelected EU has imposed a tax that we havenât voted for, in practice the EU minimum level hasnât impacted us since 1991 and itâs a necessary evil for trade to move freely across borders. If it wasnât there, it almost certainly would be replaced by import and export duties. Itâs not low-hanging fruit.
Lastly, whilst we didnât vote on VAT I believe we do have a veto on any changes in EU generated taxation.
1 Like
Iâm on my lunch, so Iâll need to keep things brief.
Fair points about our historical rates of VAT. Not so fair on others.
The 5% fuel tax isnât necessarily ring-fenced for UK spending. If weâre using any of those revenues for our EU contributions, then theyâre getting something from their money. Also, the cartelisation of prices means that these few suppliers of energy (and in waterâs case, weâre talking virtual monopolies) means that youâre paying 5% on whatever these firms are asking.
The whole point on VAT is that its regressive, and only levied on EU citizens. Perhaps the rate could be lowered if:-
a) Everybody paid it, like everyone pays sales tax in the US, even non-US people. Weâve got a system whereby tourists can swerve the 20% completely. There is no reciprocal refund system in the US.
b) We pulled in money from elsewhere, such as higher earners or corporations.
VAT madness in this country really isnât the EUâs fault. Itâs a complete mess, mainly because itâs been widely abused to give the simple minded and greedy tax breaks, whilst shifting the cost onto the poor(i include at least 90% of those that consider themselves middle class in this).
We get VAT on many food items(oranges no, orange juice, yes) and thatâs down to British law.
One thing youâre both wrong on is fuel.
Thatâs going to become more and more of a luxury, so i would only count heating(enough to stay alive) as an essential.
1 Like
@pap / @WorzelScummage, Iâm going to move your beef to, well, the beef thread. Please feel free to have at it there.
6 Likes
Also, a little pointer for anyone who isnât interested in following beefs, you can simply set the tracking preferencesâŚ
âŚto be MutedâŚ
This means that you will see no notifications for the topic and it will not appear in your latest posts feed.
#howto
Can you just do the same thing with Pap?
Sort of.
You can silence notifications from a user, but not (currently) hide their posts.
Iâll dig out some details.
I suspect your tongue might have been in your cheek, but for completeness.
IF you mute a user, you will receive no notifications from them, or about their activity at all.
You will be able to still see their posts - although if this is really an issue to people I can try something experimental.
They can also carry on writing about you and mentioning you with the @ symbol, you are just no longer informed.
So, to mute a user, go to your Preferences and then to Notifications and add the userâs user name to the list of muted users.
Hereâs a screen shot of the users I ignoreâŚ
#howto
No-deal Brexit poses serious risk to public safety, say police leaders
Havenât they done this one already?
This is the sort of thing that worries me. The Brexiters go on about nothing to fear from a no-deal exit but Iâm generally happier to trust people who know a bit about what theyâre talking about and have the data to hand. Ignoring these warnings seems to be the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and going âla la la, I canât hear youâ.
When you see that graph, it makes you wonder why Vadakar is being so difficult. No border, canât fly over Irish airspace etc etc.