Tramp needs less people looking for jobs, to boost up his chances. Stands to reason. It was either Brexit, or mass ritual killings, but unfortunately he was not given opportunity to vote on the Latter.
Originally posted by @Bearsy
Whatās your beef with that, Fats? Tramp needs less people looking for jobs, to boost up his chances. Stands to reason. It was either Brexit, or mass ritual killings, but unfortunately he was not given opportunity to vote on the Latter.
Funnily enough, the Black Death had a massive hand in the beginning of the end of serfdom. Regardless of how badly the Lords and landowners treated their serfs in fuedal Europe, they still needed their physical labour to tend their land. The shrinking of the labour supply made a massive difference in terms of how they were treated once the dust had settled. Indeed, the fact that the Black Death was so widespread across Europe gave historians something of a controlled study insofar as they could observe different effects in different countries with varying death tolls.
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Originally posted by @MrTrampoline
Originally posted by @Fatso
So you wanted to cut off the immigrant labour supply? Are you saying that all those graduates you worked with in your 17k job were being denied jobs because of immigration?
Not necessarily immigration (although Iād say well over 50% of the company were indeed migrants - mainly from Spain/Greece/Italy); but a replacability in general.
You simply donāt have any bargaining lever if youāre replacable.
Now, if youāre arguing that I ought to simply shut up and get competing or that Iām voting selfishly then thatās fine, but it doesnāt answer the question of how itās in my interest to remain in the EU.
I thought those who think migrants have taken jobs were talking about low skilled, low paid jobs. If youthink leaving the EU will stop the immigration of skilled people then I think youāll be disappointed. I donāt even think it will make any (or much) difference to non skilled migration. If you think you are āreplaceableā, but not by migrants, then who is replacing you and why would leaving the EU make a difference to that?
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Originally posted by @Fatso
I thought those who think migrants have taken jobs were talking about low skilled, low paid jobs. If youthink leaving the EU will stop the immigration of skilled people then I think youāll be disappointed. I donāt even think it will make any (or much) difference to non skilled migration. If you think you are āreplaceableā, but not by migrants, then who is replacing you and why would leaving the EU make a difference to that?
Who says that those jobs have to be low paid?
āThey donāt want to do the work!ā, you hear business owners moan.
Not for the money youāre fucking offering, mushes.
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So youāre with Mr Trampoline in thinking that leaving the EU will push (all) wages up and create more opportunity for British people? All of that depends on whether immigration is curtailed and businesses then decide that theyāll offer more money to get British people to do the work. Thereās a few of issues thereā¦(1) I donāt think immigration will be stopped in the way some Leave people think it will be (2) farms that rely on Eastern European labour will not be able to offer higher wages and people still wonāt want to do the back breaking work, so theyāll just fold (3) many factories will be in the same position so will fold or move (4) skilled labour will still be allowed in so people like Mr trampoline will still face this competition (if a points system is introduced then some of the fruit pickers will stay given that nurses and teachers came from the A8 to work in the fields of Britian).
but thatās just my guesswork and I could be entirely wrong, so it was well worth gambling the future of the country on it.
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Fatso, the law of supply and demand applies as much to Cristiano Ronaldo as it does to Bob the Builder. It favours the former, yes, but it applies to everyone. If 10,000 other people in the world were as good at football as Cristiano Ronaldo, then he would not earn the money he does.
Pap, quite right. At the end of the day weād all scrub toilets for a living if we were paid Ā£1,000,000 per hour to do it.
Iām still waiting for an argument as to how I benefit from EU membership.
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How about No.
This could just as easily go on the other thread, but weāll keep it here for now.
Lloyds are shedding 3K jobs, closing 200 branches.
Theyāre blaming Brexit.
They made Ā£2.5Bn profit last year and are part-owned by the tax payer.
But of course, Brexiters are to blame, not poor old Lloyds who have to find some way of making do with 2 and a half bil profit.
Originally posted by @pap
This could just as easily go on the other thread, but weāll keep it here for now.
Lloyds are shedding 3K jobs, closing 200 banks.
Theyāre blaming Brexit.
They made Ā£2.5Bn profit last year and are part-owned by the tax payer.
But of course, Brexiters are to blame, not poor old Lloyds who have to find some way of making do with 2 and a half bil profit.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/lloyds-bank-blames-brexit-200-11673657
Never a waste a crisis
Lloyds are being snidey bastards here. How does the Brexit lead to the closure of 400 branches serving the domestic market? Answer it doesnāt. these closures are the result of structural issues in the retail banking industry, namely that more and more people bank online and on phone and the demand for branches has fallen. How often do you go into a branch for personal banking?
Good time to get all you bad news out there - CEOs are laughing cos they cannot be held accountable for their own shite performance for the next couple of years because they will squeal about the Brexit every time they miss target. I even had a manager in Singapore try to use it as an excuse this week.FFS
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What do you do for a living CB Saint?
You are right itās about supply and demandā¦ BUT if you think you will suddenly go from 21k to 50k to 80k because of Brexit you are being rather naive. Career based jobs with 50-80-100k+ salaries will always be open the best from across Europe.Companies look for language skills and the quality that comes with many EU degrees to ensure its workforce is often as diverse as its customer base. Certianly is in my company which employs 34000 of which 2500 are in the UK, but only 1400 are British nationals, the rest are EU citizens - they are all in salary range between 25-150k but Brexit wont change a thing with respect to this - because we also have around 3000 britsh citizens working within the EU, and the first thing that will happen is a reciprical agreement to keep that as it isā¦ business needs that flexibilty and the tories will see to it.
The biggest reason why as a graduate you are stuck on 21k aged 26 is because in the last 15 years we simply have too many graduates so it is supply and demand. My company will now only recruit those with a higher degree, MSc, PhD or MBA - no longer just BSc - and we still get over 60 apllicants for each of the 5-10 graduate recruitment positions available in the UK each yearā¦ that is how tough it is. All leaving teh EU will do is increase the paper work when recruiting form those countries, but we will still do it because of the quality of the apllicants.
Iām not asking for Ā£50k-Ā£80k or Ā£100k. Frankly Iād be happy with something like Ā£35k, adjusting for inflation. Iām not expecting or hoping to own my own house or go on fancy holidays etc. Just enough to live independently really even if that means renting for life.
Not a lot to ask for really is it?
If youāre right and Iām wrong then meh, what do I have to lose? If Brexit fails as an attempt to boost the bargaining power of plebs like me, then no bother. After all, I havenāt heard any reason why staying in the EU grants me any sort of an advantage other than platitudes about a āfair and open societyā or the kind of indifferent hand-waving about āa stronger economy benefits everyoneā that youād expect from a hard-right Thatcherite conservative.
Sorry guys I donāt want to make this thread into an all-about-me thing. Iāll bugger off and get working on the job applications/interview preparation that I should be doing!
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Donāt worry about it, MrTrampoline. Iāve enjoyed reading your perspective and happen to agree with a lot of your reasoning.
British wages generally, have gone down by 10.6%. Thatās before Brexit, cannot be sustainable over the long term. The only people it really benefits are those that employ a lot of staff or lend money.
Weāve been simultaneously demonising our own poor for not wanting to do the work and fostering an expanded labour market that means that salaries will never get to attractive levels. Meanwhile, Polish wages are among some of the fastest raising.
Thatās probably a result of their labour market shrinking on account of all the folk that come to work over here.
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Or it could be that their wages were so low that even a small rise looks a lot in percentage terms.
Or it could be that by joining the EU in 2004 their economic growth increased leading to higher wages
or it could be that they were on an upward trend since the late 1990s and this is just a continuation of that.
Lovely graph showing wages rising from very low start point in 1998 (click on the MAX icon to get a graph showing changes in wages since 1998)
Originally posted by @MrTrampoline
What do you do for a living CB Saint?
Bean Counter by profession, own a recruitment business.
A constant source or labour will drive down or stagnate wages, it also leaves huge drains on the nations they leave behind, Lithuania for example has lost approx. 30% of its workforce, how are they supposed to replace them? The only way is to source cheaper labour elsewhere and so it continues.
The EU can only work as long as cheaper labour can be found hence its expansion East up to Russia.
That and World War I.
Originally posted by @MrTrampoline
snipsā¦
ā¦Iām not asking for Ā£50k-Ā£80k or Ā£100k. Frankly Iād be happy with something like Ā£35k, adjusting for inflation. Iām not expecting or hoping to own my own house or go on fancy holidays etc. Just enough to live independently really even if that means renting for life.
Maybe itās as much to do with your profession and employer (not looked back in this thread to see if you have mentioned, apols if you have).
My son is 22, does not have a degree, in fact we all agreed further āschoolingā would be wasted on him, but he got onto an apprenticeship at 18 where he was one of 42 out of 5000 applicant to get through the 3 day recruitment process, succesfully did his 3 years, and now he is classed as a professional and has a salary not too far below what you are seeking.
Not wishing to put you down nor disagree with your own situation in the slightest mate, but there are salaries and jobs made possible and attainable for the less educationally āaccreditedā. they may indeed be as common as henās teeth, but they are there.
(I donāt have a degree either, indeed only 1 A level - done ok though)
Yet average wages in Lithuania have increased since 2004 apart from a blip during the credit crunch. Ave wage in Lithuania in 2004 was ā¬350 and itās now ā¬750.
Click on the MAX icon above the graph to see trends over time
Iām sure thatāll be a comfort to working people 10.6% worse off, paying 20% VAT 
Alongside Greece, weāre the worst performing country in Europe. I think there is an argument to say that as progenitors of the worldās most widely spoken language, we could be uniquely attractive. MrTrampolineās arguments about replaceability are bang on, as is his point about the Black Death generally raising the living conditions of those lucky enough to survive it.
Employers have been able to forgo many of their responsibilities because of the huge labour market. We talked on the other thread about Italian workers at Fawley being paid much less than their English counterparts. I can remember a time when British tradesmen werenāt getting work because of the influx of cheaper alternatives. Weāve got 25% youth employment now.
Basic supply and demand. The more someone needs something, the more theyāll pay. Employers need staff, but they donāt necessarily need British staff. The combination of globalisation, the shift east and the freedom of movement of EU nationals has been a three pronged attack on workers rights.
First, companies just might not set up here full stop. Cheaper to pay dirt wages in the Far East than anything approaching a living wage here. Next, youāve got the companies that move, often aided in this transition by EU funding. Finally, youāve got a shitload of very keen and very able people coming to compete with a country full of miserable bastards.
Iāve never blamed the immigrant in this. In their place, Iād do the same - but our politicians constructed a businessmanās paradise within the EU, particularly for those in countries which can draw on cheaper Labour market.
What options do employers have moving forward? As the rules stand, they can continue to employ immigrants, but _only _if they pay the 30-odd grand a year at which Theresa May considers a foreigner worth having, or start paying more for local staff, training them if they donāt have the skills.