# 🇸🇾 Syria **URL:** \ **Category:** Reasonably serious discussion\ **Created:** [6 November 2015 23:32 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281 "2015-11-06T23:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![pap](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/pap/32/74795_2.png) [@pap](https://www.sotonians.com/u/pap)\ **Post date:** [1 December 2015 23:14 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/81 "2015-12-01T23:14:01Z")
I get the sense that Cameron’s case is being dismantled. I don’t want to cross threads too much, but the thing he has really fallen down on is the big lie of 70,000 willing and able ground participants. His record in intervention is fucking atrocious, both on the post-conflict and the nation building. After Gaddafi fell in Libya, “a thousand militias” sprung up in his place, all part of a desperate murky civil war that has yet to be resolved and has become a fertile ground for extremism. His comments about “terrorist sympathisers” were both fucking disgusting, and indicative of the Bush-like overtures he is prepared to unleash upon the House of Commons in order to prop up his invention. And to think, they had a go at McDonnell because he quoted Mao in jest. Cameron’s fucking channeling Dubya and giving Blair a run for his money on Prime Ministerial contributions to the fantasy genre. ---
**Author:** ![pap](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/pap/32/74795_2.png) [@pap](https://www.sotonians.com/u/pap)\ **Post date:** [1 December 2015 23:24 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/82 "2015-12-01T23:24:17Z")
Peter Hitchens on “the delusional case for war”. [http://www.lbc.co.uk/peter-hitchens-on-camerons-delusional-case-for-war--120456](http://www.lbc.co.uk/peter-hitchens-on-camerons-delusional-case-for-war--120456) ---
**Author:** ![pap](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/pap/32/74795_2.png) [@pap](https://www.sotonians.com/u/pap)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 10:09 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/83 "2015-12-02T10:09:17Z")
The Indy is leading with this article this morning on its website. > **[Patrick Cockburn is briefing MPs about Syria strikes - here's his briefing...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-is-on-the-verge-of-entering-into-a-long-war-in-syria-based-on-wishful-thinking-and-poor-a6756476.html)** > > Patrick Cockburn was invited by Jeremy Corbyn to brief MPs on the facts about today’s Common’s vote on air strikes in Syria. This is his briefing to you Any thoughts? It’s hanging on a knife-edge for me. ---
**Author:** ![Bucks](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/bucks/32/87_2.png) [@Bucks](https://www.sotonians.com/u/Bucks)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 10:21 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/84 "2015-12-02T10:21:23Z")
This article on the “70,000” moderates opposed to Assad and IS is interesting. It concludes two main things: 1. the number of fighters is significantly understated, as it ignores the Kurds, and the total is more like 100-120k 2. this total ignores the regional variances of relative power within the various factions. In some parts of Syria there is relative stability and credible force opposed to the regime and IS. In the south and west however, the scattered nature of the numerous factions make their strength questionable. > **[Are there 70,000 Syrian 'moderates' ready to back UK?](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34975978)** > > Analyst Michael Stephens says the British government has oversold the strength of its potential allies in Syria, whilst simultaneously underselling the strength of others. ---
**Author:** ![pap](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/pap/32/74795_2.png) [@pap](https://www.sotonians.com/u/pap)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 10:36 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/85 "2015-12-02T10:36:15Z")
Isn’t that wishful thinking kiboshed by what Patrick Cockburn states in his article, though? That the problem is that these groups often hate the village down the road as much as they both might hate Assad. I’m kind of leaning toward what Peter Hitchens says in that interview; it only really makes sense if Cameron is doing this on behalf of Riyadh. This is increasingly looking like foot in the door stuff for regime change, I reckon. We’ve been down that road before, and we’re still stuck on it, spending national treasure on it for almost 15 years. What really irks is that Cameron has had five years to get his act together, to build a meaningful solution to the crisis that gets broad support. And yet, both times that he wants us to go into Syria, it follows an atrocity on European soil. That’s a dangerously reactive way to go about things. It’s like making an important decision a couple of seconds after being punched in the face. You’re not in your right mind. It is not like “do nothing” is the other alternative either. Most of those that have signalled that they are voting against the strikes have professed a wish to address the problem. Just not with this plan, and not with roadblocks like never dealing with Assad or Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Barry-Sanchez](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/barry-sanchez/32/76_2.png) [@Barry-Sanchez](https://www.sotonians.com/u/Barry-Sanchez)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 11:00 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/86 "2015-12-02T11:00:02Z")
> Originally posted by @pap > > Isn’t that wishful thinking kiboshed by what Patrick Cockburn states in his article, though? That the problem is that these groups often hate the village down the road as much as they both might hate Assad. I’m kind of leaning toward what Peter Hitchens says in that interview; it only really makes sense if Cameron is doing this on behalf of Riyadh. > > This is increasingly looking like foot in the door stuff for regime change, I reckon. We’ve been down that road before, and we’re still stuck on it, spending national treasure on it for almost 15 years. > > What really irks is that Cameron has had five years to get his act together, to build a meaningful solution to the crisis that gets broad support. And yet, both times that he wants us to go into Syria, it follows an atrocity on European soil. That’s a dangerously reactive way to go about things. It’s like making an important decision a couple of seconds after being punched in the face. You’re not in your right mind. > > It is not like “do nothing” is the other alternative either. Most of those that have signalled that they are voting against the strikes have professed a wish to address the problem. Just not with this plan, and not with roadblocks like never dealing with Assad or Russia. > > Basically tribal nature based on religious and family lines, we had this 500 years ago here, thank fuck that went, maybe we should knock on the door in another 500 and see if they are out of the stoneage yet. ---
**Author:** ![BTripz](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/btripz/32/75839_2.png) [@BTripz](https://www.sotonians.com/u/BTripz)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 12:11 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/87 "2015-12-02T12:11:08Z")
See the problem I have with Corbyn’s excuses for not backing the strikes (which I am still decidedly undecided on) is that “we need to find a political solution to the civil war in Syria”!! Now don’t get me wrong we do need a political solution BUT isn’t the reson that we want to drop bombs on Syria to wipe out Daesh/IS/ISIL not to stop the civil war that is going on? ---
**Author:** ![pap](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/pap/32/74795_2.png) [@pap](https://www.sotonians.com/u/pap)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 12:31 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/88 "2015-12-02T12:31:04Z")
We should look be looking to end all wars, full stop. When we bear a measure of collective responsibility, doubly so. Look at how the West gleefully supported, and helped to bring about, the Arab Spring. Cited as a wave of freedom rushing across the oppressive Islamic states, in most cases, it has just led to more instability, not least the Aleppo inspired uprising which kicked off the conflict in Syria. Wanting that disastrous situation to end, presently responsible for the biggest movement of refugees since the Second World War, isn’t a bad thing. Many think it’s an essential pre-requisite for getting ISIS out of Syria. ---
**Author:** ![BTripz](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/btripz/32/75839_2.png) [@BTripz](https://www.sotonians.com/u/BTripz)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 13:10 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/89 "2015-12-02T13:10:11Z")
> Originally posted by @pap > > We should look be looking to end all wars, full stop. I agree with you wholeheartedly but, unfortuantely, this is such a pipe dream that it will never happen. Now they’ve got going do you really think that Daesh, and their warped idealology, will suddenly pause and think “Hey the infidel West have stopped attacking us, they must be really nice guys after all, maybe we were wrong and we should stop too!” Would ISIS really leave Syria because a government was democratically voted in? No way, they hate democracy so they would try and bring it down. Let’s not forget, as Barry in one of his more lucid moments said, the west were going through this sort of shit 500 years ago. We should have learnt from the feudal system and we have come to, what we consider, a better way so why shouldn’t we try to encourage other, “less enlightened”, cultures to go that route? Trouble is the people who have the power don’t want to relinquish it and will fight tooth and nail to hold on to it! Trouble is, as we have found, the middle east is full of Hydras but instead of another head growing when you chop one off it seems to grow another Hydra. BTW nothing I have said above condones any military action that we have taken in the middle east/Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Barry-Sanchez](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/barry-sanchez/32/76_2.png) [@Barry-Sanchez](https://www.sotonians.com/u/Barry-Sanchez)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 14:21 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/90 "2015-12-02T14:21:07Z")
Lets not blame the West all the time, self hate is a weapon they use in us, we should simply not help at all, why? We cant do anyting right concerning the Middle East so what do we do? We stay out, we dont touch it until other Nations nearby help. ---
**Author:** ![pap](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/pap/32/74795_2.png) [@pap](https://www.sotonians.com/u/pap)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 14:42 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/91 "2015-12-02T14:42:00Z")
> Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez > > > Originally posted by @pap > > > > We should look be looking to end all wars, full stop. When we bear a measure of collective responsibility, doubly so. Look at how the West gleefully supported, and helped to bring about, the Arab Spring. Cited as a wave of freedom rushing across the oppressive Islamic states, in most cases, it has just led to more instability, not least the Aleppo inspired uprising which kicked off the conflict in Syria. Wanting that disastrous situation to end, presently responsible for the biggest movement of refugees since the Second World War, isn’t a bad thing. > > > > Many think it’s an essential pre-requisite for getting ISIS out of Syria. > > Lets not blame the West all the time, self hate is a weapon they use in us, we should simply not help at all, why? We cant do anyting right concerning the Middle East so what do we do? Step away from the “all the West’s fault” strawman, Barry. No-one is being that explicit; the post you’re referring to speaks of a “measure of collective responsibility”, a long way from “we did it all” > We stay out, we dont touch it until other Nations nearby help. ---
**Author:** ![WorzelScummage](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/worzelscummage/32/73175_2.png) [@WorzelScummage](https://www.sotonians.com/u/WorzelScummage)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 14:46 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/92 "2015-12-02T14:46:24Z")
Margaret Beckett gave a compelling case… ---
**Author:** ![WorzelScummage](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/worzelscummage/32/73175_2.png) [@WorzelScummage](https://www.sotonians.com/u/WorzelScummage)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 14:48 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/93 "2015-12-02T14:48:18Z")
Once it started, we were enablers to those upriver. What I don’t get is that they don’t seem to understand that democracy cannot work well in these cultures, they need dictators to stop the different factions warring. ---
**Author:** ![Rallyboy](https://www.sotonians.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/0ea827/32.png) [@Rallyboy](https://www.sotonians.com/u/Rallyboy)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 14:51 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/94 "2015-12-02T14:51:04Z")
I fear we are heading for another _Operation Clusterfuck_. I’m all for wiping out terrorist groups, more the merrier - but I see no clear plan. ---
**Author:** ![Barry-Sanchez](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/barry-sanchez/32/76_2.png) [@Barry-Sanchez](https://www.sotonians.com/u/Barry-Sanchez)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 14:55 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/95 "2015-12-02T14:55:54Z")
Pap you hate the West, this Country and all democracy stands for simply because it fills up your rebel meter. Many are like that, hating ones own Nation and everything it does fills a void… ---
**Author:** ![BTripz](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/btripz/32/75839_2.png) [@BTripz](https://www.sotonians.com/u/BTripz)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 15:03 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/96 "2015-12-02T15:03:25Z")
> Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint > Once it started, we were enablers to those upriver. What I don’t get is that they don’t seem to understand that democracy cannot work well in these cultures, they need dictators to stop the different factions warring. Disagree Cherts, get rid of the people who have and like the power and get you can do. ---
**Author:** ![Goatboy](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/goatboy/32/167_2.png) [@Goatboy](https://www.sotonians.com/u/Goatboy)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 15:04 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/97 "2015-12-02T15:04:12Z")
We shouldn’t look upon it as bombing Syria, we should view it as creating employment opportunities for the elderly: ---
**Author:** ![WorzelScummage](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/worzelscummage/32/73175_2.png) [@WorzelScummage](https://www.sotonians.com/u/WorzelScummage)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 15:05 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/98 "2015-12-02T15:05:45Z")
I’m not sure myself, look at what’s happened in Egypt and the like, it’s a fucking merry-go-round of irresponsible people, Generals etc. ---
**Author:** ![pap](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/pap/32/74795_2.png) [@pap](https://www.sotonians.com/u/pap)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 15:15 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/99 "2015-12-02T15:15:40Z")
> Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez > Pap you hate the West, this Country and all democracy stands for simply because it fills up your rebel meter. Many are like that, hating ones own Nation and everything it does fills a void… To quote the great Malcolm Reynolds, “my days of not taking you seriously are coming to a middle”. Did sir ever consider that without the freedoms that my hated West provides, I wouldn’t be able to be critical of it? I appreciate that labels are easier to dish out than considered responses, but it’s not one I think applies. If you’d said “Western imperialism” (or indeed, just imperialism) you may have been closer to the mark. ---
**Author:** ![BTripz](https://www.sotonians.com/user_avatar/www.sotonians.com/btripz/32/75839_2.png) [@BTripz](https://www.sotonians.com/u/BTripz)\ **Post date:** [2 December 2015 15:16 UTC](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281/100 "2015-12-02T15:16:01Z")
Tunisia has worked… [Previous page](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281.md?page=4) [Next page](https://www.sotonians.com/t/syria/3281.md?page=6)